What Makes a Good Spiritual Leader?

Clint  0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to the spiritual cake podcast, we talk about everything in anything that has to do with the spiritual side of humanity. We understand the mental, we understand the physical, we understand the emotional, like we really understand it. But then there’s the spiritual side. And that’s what we discuss right here. My name is Clint Hufft. And with me is Wendy Dahl. Wendy.

Wendy  0:22

Hi, Clint. Hello.

Clint  0:24

So real quickly, let’s get this out of the way. Neither Wendy nor I are ordained clergy. We don’t run a church. I like the way you described it on our website, spiritualcake.com. We don’t run a church. I think it’s really important to point that out. But we are incredibly curious. And we do come from diverse backgrounds. Like for instance, Wendy, was raised Mormon and I was raised Lutheran. But then I studied a bunch of philosophies and theologies, and then we’re both in the event industry. And so especially when it comes to weddings, we interface with people from all over the world of all different theologies and backgrounds and that sort of thing. So we have really enjoyed our conversations. And Wendy, I hope you’re ready for this. I want to do a word association game with you. Are you ready?

Wendy  1:11

All right. Okay.

Clint  1:19

People, this is about people.

So I will say, at a descriptive noun. And you tell me the first person that jumps into your head, and it could be living or dead doesn’t make any difference. Okay, ready?

Wendy  1:28

Ready.

Clint

Saint

Wendy

Peter?

Clint

Oh, okay. Very good. St. Peter. Okay. Guru

Wendy

Deepak Chopra.

Clint

Ah, I like it. And holy.

Wendy

The Pope.

Oh, wait, Is that a bell really happening in the background when I said Pope? That just happened.

Clint  2:02

That’s funny. That’s funny. That was my phone. And I should turn that off right now. That was really funny.

Clint  2:17

Oh, the Pope. Okay, great. Well, I was playing this in my head. And what’s fascinating, and one of the reasons I just love the diversity of people, is I was thinking to myself, okay, if I’m gonna play this game with Wendy, then I should probably play with myself before we even start talking this morning. And when I thought of holy, I thought of Jesus. And then when I thought of a saint, I thought of Teresa. Because those two words just seem to go together. And then guru. Here’s something that’s really funny. In my head. There was a documentary, I think you can find it on Netflix, and it’s called, I Am Not Your Guru. And it’s about Tony Robbins. Now, having studied Eastern philosophies, and theologies, there’s a lot of other people that then when I gave it a thought, jumped into my head, but I thought it was funny that he was the first person only because of the title of that documentary. And, it’s the negatives, it’s the non, I am not your guru. And from a certain standpoint, just to talk about that for a second. I like that. He said, he helps people, but he doesn’t want blind faith. He doesn’t want any of that kind of stuff. So that was cool. So the reason what brought me to this particular game of word association, I was thinking about, what’s the criteria to consider somebody like a spiritual master? I mean, what do you think is necessary for somebody to attain that title or level of recognition or whatever, and I’m gonna let you chew on that for just one second.

Wendy  8:10

Okay, so in my opinion for somebody to be a spiritual leader, I don’t know that they always need to have licensure, or I think, in some cases, people just are where it seems to me like it’s their calling here on the earth to lead people in a spiritual way. And they’ve taken it upon themselves to learn as much as they can and to influence others for good. And I know good is subjective. And we’ve gone through the whole thing about what good is for some people and for others. And so I look at many churches or even faiths, how things are passed down from generation to generation, or they are endowed through a blessing or you’re ordained as something through somebody that has the same sort of power, so to speak. And so I believe that there is definitely that as far as qualifications, but I feel like even looking into the churches that are that surround me, like many of the churches were just created from a person that has decided that they wanted to stand in that line light of being a spiritual leader, where they just started a church. And so, people often say that about Joseph Smith, and that he decided back in the 1800s, to start a church. But if you were to do further readings, you would see that there was an ordinate ordination from God and so you know, other people could say the same thing and so in to circle back around with my thought process on how can one become a spiritual leader, I think it’s it’s something that they feel compelled to become.

Clint  10:11

You know that saying of greatness, some are born great, some are something, and then some have greatness thrust upon them. Mm hmm. Yeah. Oh, first of all, just a little clarification, who’s Joseph Smith?

Wendy  10:24

So Joseph Smith was the person in the Mormon faith that reestablished the church as we know it on the earth. So he was the one that transcribed, there are some golden plates, and he transcribed the golden plates to what we know is the Book of Mormon.

Clint  10:46

Okay. Yes. Okay. So you said something interesting, that it’s interesting, because there’s different levels to I think what we’re talking about in terms of a person. I know, to be fair, I asked you a specific question about a spiritual leader, not a holy person. I think, firstly, we need the same thing.

Wendy  11:10

Exactly. So I see them as this anonymous thing where a holy person has to be like, in order to be a spiritual leader, you have to be holy. Otherwise, I don’t know that. I don’t know that that is something I recognize as a spiritual leader.

Clint  11:25

Well, okay, see, this is good. We’re kind of digging in on this a little bit. I like it. So it used to be, I’m not Catholic. But I was told that when somebody becomes Pope, they have, there’s a term for it, where they can’t be wrong.

Divine something rather, I forget what it is.

Anyway, all the decisions they make, all the people of the Catholic faith are supposed to follow it. Because the Pope said so. And the Pope apparently has a link to God. And the decisions that the Pope makes is all holy. There’s, I forget what the term is. But anyway, you understand what I’m saying. And so it’s really easy for people who are not involved in that particular religion, or that, whatever you want to call it religion, let’s say religion. And I’ll bet there’s even a fair percentage of the people in the Catholic faith that are kind of like, Nah, I don’t really buy into that, which goes back to my whole thing about there’s as many religions as there are people on the face of the earth. Now, what you said about somebody who just wants to set up their own church, and they become a spiritual leader. In that particular case, there’s no defining spiritual weight to the word spiritual.

In that particular scenario, because if you if you file the right forms, and you find a space, where you would hold your meetings, but basically, if you achieve tax free status, when they call it nonprofit status, religious organization, whatever. And then you kind of do whatever you want to do. But yet, my wife and I have gotten into this habit of it’s wonderful when we get up early in the morning, and we drive to the beach, and we walk the beach for about two and a half miles as the sun comes up. And it’s kind of neat, because we keep saying the same people who do basically the same thing. Some of them are running. There’s this woman who walks by us every morning, and she’ll look at us with this big smile on her face. She looks to be like middle aged, and she’ll say, “Do you want to hear today’s message?”. And I always thought, I’m not gonna get caught in that Maelstrom. I’m not gonna get tied up for the next five or 10 minutes, while this woman tells me what I’m supposed to think. But we met another person, and we stopped to chat with that person. And the timing was perfect. And this woman walked up and said, “Do you want to hear today’s message?” And he said, Sure. And I thought, Oh, my gosh, what have we gotten into? And you know what? She said, two sentences. And that was it. And it’s very uplifting, and it was very, like, those who get it out of it and find the will the joy of God. And I thought, that’s nice. So in her mind, she’s a spiritual leader. Because otherwise she wouldn’t walk up to us and say, “Do you want to hear today’s message?” And you got to figure that’s her gig. But then listen to this story. I know I’m kind of all over the place, but bear with me. There’s the Buddha, the Gautama Buddha. That Buddhists that’s their figurehead. And there’s a lot of stories written about him about how he became the Buddha. About he was a prince, a privileged Prince. And then he discovered that there was suffering in the world, because the royal family never let him out like, the temple or the castle or whatever it is. And so he snuck out one time, and he saw people suffering. And so he decided, Okay, there’s another way. And then he goes to some tree and he attains enlightenment. And he’s the Buddha. Well, there’s a story that was written where he’s the main character. And they the the fiction author kind of dives into, I wonder what he’s actually thinking. And then he assembles followers and disciples and things like that. Well, it turns out his right hand guy was doing everything that Buddha was talking about the Buddha in the story. And then Buddha realizes, I got to get out of this. I feel like I’m not being honest. I got to get out of this. And his right hand person says, You can’t leave.  We all believe in you. And he said, No, no, no, you’re the one. You’re the one who is the actual saint, you’re the one who has touched God and feels and is living and breathing that connection, not me. So you’re the one that’s now going to take over this congregation, so to speak. And I thought, wow, that says so much about that process, that way of thinking in terms of giving somebody the adulation of the title and you give them the power of being a leader. And when you talk about spiritual leaders? Boy, that’s a slippery slope. What do you think of everything I’ve said so far?

Wendy  16:44

Well, I can identify with it directly, actually, because in the Mormon faith, the bishop is essentially the leader of your congregation. And so they’re given a calling. And so sometimes the person that is called as the bishop, I feel is extremely qualified, where they are a spiritual leader, and they uplift their congregation. And other times, I feel like the person that is called, the calling is more for them than for the congregation where it’s to develop them as an individual. And so I can see both sides of the coin, where there is a spiritual leader that exists that is called. And then sometimes it is to shape one to become a spiritual leader. And in some cases, it works. And in some cases, it doesn’t. Like for me right now, the Bishop of my congregation, I don’t necessarily connect with him at all, like I don’t even feel like he’s a spiritual leader. Oftentimes, when you have a bishop, you feel spiritually connected to them, or I just simply don’t. And I’ve really struggled with this over the past several years, because they’re usually given a term between four and six years of being a bishop. And, so I’m having a really hard time with this particular Bishop, because I don’t know that in my mind, and this is probably my issue, I don’t feel that he’s necessarily qualified. And so I’m having a hard time. And you know, to bring it back into other people, like how how people are called to become a bishop. It’s generally done through prayer and a lot of thought with the next level up from a bishop is called the state presidency. And that’s like a regional director, so to speak, if you were to relate it to what a business’s and so it’s these men that are inspired to call people to certain positions. There was a time where my ex brother in law, cuz I was married 10 years ago, where he was called to be a bishop, and he was the first person to say, I am not qualified to do this, I know that this is for my personal refinement to my heart softened to become a better leader and to focus more on my own spirituality as he was leading others. And that was obviously a challenge that he encountered. I mean, I wasn’t in his congregation. So I don’t know what he was like, but, I see the difference of somebody that is more of a spiritual leader, that is already one, versus somebody that has been thrust into the position of being a spiritual leader that necessarily may not have that as a, I guess, a blessing that they already exist, or that they possess.

Clint  19:43

Wow, that’s fascinating. There’s so many different levels to just that one organization’s process of elevating somebody to a leadership position. What about this? What if we bring it back into smaller. Do you consider yourself the spiritual leader For your children?

Wendy  20:02

I do. And I think most parents, if they don’t step into that role should because if they don’t, and your children are seeking out a spiritual leader will not find it in you. And they might find it in something that you don’t want them to find it.

Clint  20:15

Well, then there’s the criteria of what actually is a spiritual leader. Again, the way we’re defining it, there’s the difference between running an organization, right, and this is compared to somebody who is elevating a fellow human being, to hopefully a spiritual experience, I think, is it safe to say that those are two completely different things?

Wendy  20:42

Can you repeat that one more time?

Clint  20:44

I know, that’s a little confusing, sorry. So there’s somebody who runs an organization, right? For instance, my mom, for many years was the secretary of our church. It’s a small church, Lutheran Church. And so that means that she was the secretary to the pastor. And so when I watched what he went through, and then I watched other clergy, who have a congregation, what they’re asked to do, I mean, there’s a lot of service things that they’re asked to do. Plus, they have to make sure that the accounting of the church is on the up and up. And, they have to run the organization. But then there’s what’s built in now is, can they do that adequately? And can they also be the spiritual anchor or guidepost for the congregation? Those are two completely different skill sets. I realized that we talked about a spiritual leader, I think I do believe that is a skill set, I think that you can be deeply, deeply connected to the divine. And if your social skills aren’t on the up and up, or your bedside manner is wacky, then you won’t be providing an uplifting experience, or maybe even spiritual comfort, depending upon the need of the person. But I think it’s okay to acknowledge that those are two completely separate things, running an organization and being, in some instances, a conduit to comfort and hope.

Wendy  22:25

Yeah, I think you described my current predicament with my Bishop. There you go. I feel like he’s very businesslike. And so I’m sure he’s running the ward efficiently on the one side, but on the other side, like you said, the bedside manner is non existent. And so for me, that’s probably the disconnect where I’m sure he is greatly connected with God in his own way for his own reasoning, but when it translates or transfers to me personally, I don’t identify like, for me, it’s almost like there’s a huge disconnect between his spirituality and his ability to lead me spiritually.

Clint  23:09

Yeah, I get that. And then I started thinking about in the Catholic Church, they have the confessionals. And you always see in the movies where some trouble, a character in the story will walk into the empty chapel.

And the clergy will come over and say, Can I help you my son or my daughter or whatever, and provide this word of wisdom to this person? Right? Well, then I imagine, okay, now we’re talking about the different layers of of that particular role. Because we also all have heard of clergy that lead a congregation, but they themselves are going through an existential crisis, where they really are doubting the existence of God and yet, here they are in a God based organization and people are looking to them for guidance in a spiritual process which theoretically includes God. And so it would be quite a skill set, while you’re doubting whether or not there actually is a God, and to be able to provide the right words in the right way, bedside manner, if you will, to still provide comfort and hope to a congregant, in need of some sort of spiritual guidance or consolation, to still have that skill and that knowledge to be able to do that while internally, you’re still struggling with some of the concepts. Does that make sense?

Wendy  25:40

It does actually. Brings me back to a time when I was part of a mastermind, and one of the gentlemen in my group, this particular day was looking at starting a church. And he was asking me what would make me attend his church versus somebody else’s. And it was all the things that you just said, where I was, like, generally people turn to a church for a purpose. And that’s either to find community or to find somebody they can follow, or to help them get through a challenging time. And he ultimately didn’t start his church, because he felt he was not qualified to help people through challenges. So he realized that he wanted to be a spiritual leader. And that felt like a calling to him to want to do. But where he identified, he fell short was that he didn’t know how to counsel people through the challenges. And he felt like he didn’t have that ability. And so he never he never started it, which I thought was interesting. Because I thought it might be most to him.

Clint  26:46

I think that’s really good that you did that, to identify that.

Wendy  26:49

Yeah, for sure. For sure. But I also felt kind of sad, because I saw the spiritual side of him and I felt how you feel good people, they feel different than ordinary people. And I felt that he had that spiritual connection for himself. I definitely see how that if you’re having a struggle with certain issues, how it would be harder to help other people get through them yourself. But I also see people who have been through challenges like for me, I’m a Mormon woman that is divorced. I’ve been divorced for 10 years. And I see that other people that are going through divorce often reach out to me being like, how did you deal with it? How did you manage it? And, that’s an unexpected thing, where I never thought that people will reach out to me and be like, what did you do? And how did you deal with it? And so I think that challenges sometimes that people go through, or the challenge of faith or the things that people go through as humans to struggle to become stronger can definitely help others. So like, if you’re feeling challenged in, like he was saying, helping people through a transition, and maybe it’s just studying it to become stronger. And you could help others as a spiritual leader.

Clint  28:11

Well, it makes me wonder where the good feeling comes from, that if it’s chemical, like a dopamine or serotonin or whatever, there’s the right thing, that I get when I think that I’m actually helping people. If I’m having a conversation with somebody, and I think that what I’ve said helps them, doesn’t have to be spiritual, it’s just that I want to help people, right? And, if they find joy, or relief, or something that I feel like I’ve had a positive effect, then I like how that makes me feel. And so I’m just imagining, there’s two things. Number one, I’m imagining a person like the guy in the mastermind group, where he loves that feeling. And he’s thinking to himself that I’ve had positive experiences helping other people or providing insight for other people. And wouldn’t it be great if I had, like a bigger, like a way to kind of organize that process, where more people feel like they could come to me and I understand that. But the other thing that it reminds me of is biting off more than you can chew, and not really understand what you’re getting yourself into. Now, as entrepreneurs, you and I both understand that completely. There’s that book, The E Myth, by I forget who wrote it. But the idea that somebody is really good at doing a particular craft, and they think to themselves, I’m tired of working for somebody else, and I’m gonna start my own business because I’m really good at this thing. And then they have the rude awakening of Yeah, you’re really good at that thing, but you’re probably not any good at running an actual business. Which brings you back to the difference between the two spiritual leaders, the one that runs an organization compared to the one that has that kind of internal connection that other people can benefit from and each has its own value and need, right? Because if you’re going to have an organization that has to be, it’s an organization. So there you go. But that spiritual connection, that part of basically The reason we started this podcast is that connection that provides people with not only an uplift, but also a consoling and comforting, and giving glimpse of hope and peace.

That’s the thing that that I think is really, really, really important.

I think that you and I both know, there are some people out there who have big followings, and you have a suspicion that they know what to say, how to say it, and when to say it. But we’re not really 100% convinced of the internal process. Does it really have a divine origination? Or does it not? So I guess bringing it back, I always like to think big and then think small, bringing you back to each one of us. I think it’s okay to internalize, am I a leader? For myself? Am I an adequate spiritual leader for myself? And if that job is bigger than what I feel equipped to do in terms of being my own spiritual leader, then how do I find the right person to help me be a spiritual leader for myself? And there’s a whole new episode right there.

Wendy  31:38

Exactly.

Clint  31:41

And I know that your mind is going a million miles a second right now.

Wendy  31:46

Are we out of time already held the fun? Let’s talk about that next.

Clint  31:52

Okay, cool. Wendy, if you would, please tell everybody how they can get in touch with us.

Wendy  31:57

You can find us online at spiritualcake.com. And at this on our website, you can read or listen to any of our previous podcast episodes, or you can connect with us via email. Or you can even click on one of our social media icons and find us on Facebook or Instagram.

Clint  32:18

Fantastic. And our direct line email is [email protected]. And please understand that if you reach out to us, you are being welcomed with open arms. This is a conversation we’re not providing directives or dogma or any of that kind of stuff. We’re also on a curious path that brings us joy and peace and and we hope that you will join with us. All right, that’s it for this episode of the spiritual cake podcast. This is Clint and on behalf of Wendy, We will see you next time.