Everybody, welcome to spiritual cake the podcast where two people talk about the spirit stuff. And there’s a lot of layers to it and that’s why we came up with the idea of cake. My name is Clint and with me is Wendy when they say hello.
This is episode number two, and typical with most podcasts, we are learning our rhythms and so far it’s been really fun and listeners you could have been had access to the conversations that led up to the idea of we should have podcasts and talk about these things and discuss them and go back and forth. What I love about this is that neither of us consider ourselves like religious experts. We’re just two people on a path that is very specific to ourselves, but our experiences are pretty diverse. Wendy comes from event planning and she’s a speaker and a coach and just one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. And my own journey has been very diverse and so I just thought that these conversations are the kind of conversations that most people have in their heads, if not with their friends and family so today. There’s something that was fascinating. I came across it. I think it was a GQ interview. And it was with Kanye West now. Have you listened to any of his music?
Spiritual Cake Podcast: Spiritual Cake Podcast 2 on Apple Podcasts
Kanye West interview with GQ. Kanye’s Sunday Service at Coachella. What defines a good person?
W: No, none. I mean, if it happens to be on the radio. I’m sure I have but but I don’t actively seek out Kanye West music.
C: No, no, I neither do I. However, Yeah, when he first came on the scene. He did some stuff that I really, I thought it was really cool. And he’s different he’s looked at the world differently and. And he’s done some things that, that, you know, were not my cup of tea. Like coming up onto the stage with Taylor Swift and saying you don’t deserve this, this award. That was just wacky. And then he married, Kim Kardashian. And so now he’s in that incredible marketing machine which is the Kardashian family.
2:21
And I do believe he is now officially a billionaire, because he’s diversified into clothing and sneakers and. But the thing that I caught my eye is, he has gone into Christianity. Now when I say gone into I don’t know what his background is but he says that he’s reborn. And he went to Coachella, the big Music Festival and he brought. He wanted to do a Sunday service and he brought a huge choir and they. That’s his gig, right, the Sunday service, and he’s got an album that says Jesus is King, and he really is like all in on this. This Christianity thing so now I’m going to read this to you. The quote that I thought was interesting that I sent to you, Wendy and then I want everybody to be able to hear it. And then we’ll kind of go from there.
The question was, how do you headline a Christian festival or interact with various churches. You have your own personal relationship with Jesus, that’s clean and clear. But what happens when these other organizations come into play, that our institutions have control. I think the line of questioning or the conversation here prior to this was about being controlled.
So this is Kanye’s his answer. I think yes there are groups as a man does that take the Word and use it where it was capitalized so he means scriptures that take the Word and use it to control other people. But as you said, I’m expressing my personal relationship with Christ. When I was not owning up to the maximum of who I could be as a dad, and the maximum of who I could be as a husband, that kind of behavior that kind of mentality landed me in a place where I needed to be medicated. Okay. Now all of that energy and that creativity that I have channeled and put on track comes from me surrendering to God and saying that everything is in God’s will, people can say in the same way Hey, why would you go to Paris, if they didn’t want you in the fashion houses. And that’s not going to stop my love for clothing, my love of creativity, my love of going to see the shows, and people would say, what about these things that men have done with the word of Christ, that were bad, and let’s say over institutionalized. And I’m saying that’s not going to stop my love for Christ. I’m going to keep on expressing what God has done for my life. That’s it. Now, Wendy.
4:48
Before we started recording. You said, “Did I don’t understand this?” so just jump right in.
W: What you take us really fine because you sent that to me, and I read it three times. And the first time after I finished reading it I’m like am I distracted and I’m missing the point. And the second time I read it I thought okay well I get the whole thing about where he talks about men creating a controlling environment, you know, involving the word or religion, or God, you know, and then the third time I was like, but I’m I understanding what he’s saying appropriately and meaning that he doesn’t need religion, or all the confines that come with some of the, man driven ideas of religion. And that he’s got a unique, you know, relationship with God and that he’ll never give that up and so I kinda was just like, there’s layers of understanding and what he’s saying and I felt like I was distracted when he started talking about going to Paris and all those things and I’m like no no no let’s just keep back with a message of what is he really saying.
C: And so, I’m not fair to pull this out of the entire, you know, it’s kind of backstory is he created a clothing line, and he went to the Paris Fashion shows. And so, what I got from this is I actually kind of like the core of the message, which is the outside noise that we hear a lot with a lot. Oh, when I was growing up, they talked about, people church people that would argue of how many angels could fit on the head of a pin. You ever heard that before?
6:31
Yeah, that was our way of saying that sometimes people over intellectualize spirituality and and kind of forget the essence of what it is and what it can be for people personally, and they start talking about these kind of random intricate things that have nothing to do with the core of the Spirit. And so that, so whenever I hear people start kind of going off on on well that word means this no that word means that all I can think of is, how many angels are on the head of a pin?
7:04
And so, I think, in a way, what I’m getting from what Kanye is saying here is that just because other people may not agree with what he’s doing. That doesn’t affect his core spirituality. You know what I mean? What he’s accepted for himself. That’s what I get from this well and.
W: And so from my perspective what I got from it was that the confines or the structure of what man have created around some religions or perhaps even the religion that he participated in, sent them to the point of where he was on medication to feel better about himself to deal with life as it existed and that he still maintained his relationship with God.
C: That’s the first paragraph where he mentioned that he was medicated.
W: But I feel like that’s kind of a sense where I mean growing up, I remember thinking to myself, you know, as I was sitting in Sunday school and I was sitting in all these classes learning about how I needed to be. I remember feeling you know at that tender young age of, you know, 10 or 12 or whatever it was just thinking, How can I do all of this. How can I be that good. Like when I don’t feel like I want to sit still in church and I don’t feel like, you know I want to give up my Sunday to observe the Sabbath, I felt that sense of rebelliousness where it was overwhelming to me to be like, gosh, I have to do all these things in order to be considered good you know and then take that 10 steps forward as an adult, you know, every church has a different way of evaluating, like, let’s say your level of goodness, so to speak, or your level of connection to God and you know some churches base it on your behavior some churches, like in my church. They base it on your level of activity, which I don’t always agree with, because I feel like from my observation I am seeing people that are in church every day that aren’t necessarily good, but they’re there. But they’re considered to be good because they’re there. And then, and you know, from my perspective, I’m just like, well, we’re all good people but my job makes it so I have to work on the weekends. And so I get that, funny sideways look of like well, where were you for the past two three Sundays, and I’m just like, well I’m out there Creating Magic in the world and I’m writing, that’s going on the T shirt. Yeah, I’m creating magic of the world.
9:37
The cool part is like every wedding we do has some sense of connection to God in it. And so, very rarely do I get the the ones that don’t want to mention God in their, in their ceremony service but you know I’m in other churches. I’m learning about other faiths you know I’m doing all these things and it’s just like, so I still feel I’m still you know reading the scriptures and I’m still praying and I’m still doing all the things that “good people” do. I’m just not in church. And so I could understand where Kanye is like, gosh, you know, I’ve got all these rules that I have to follow and, you know, and all these things for me to be “good.”
10:23
But if I step aside from that and think I just need to have a relationship with God. That’s really what matters, and I and I honestly believe that God’s not up there, keeping score going, were you in church on Sunday, you know, or did you do all of these things perfectly? I think God’s up there going, are we connected? Are you doing good things? you know, are you becoming a better person and a good person. And you’re making magic in the world. And I’m doing all the good things.
C: Okay, a couple of things couple things that I heard you say that I think are interesting number one. I’ve always felt that the word good in regards to human behavior is very subjective. Right, yeah. I mean, and that’s where I think some people will take the word good and and make a manipulative.
11:11
You know if you want a kid to sit still. There’s got to be some. It’s either pleasure or pain there’s got to be some reward or lack of pain, connected with changing someone’s behavior. I mean that’s just the human condition. Right. And so, and so that’s where you know how many angels are the head of a pin in regards to what people who belong to a particular religious organization, and they begin to judge each other, you know, because there also is inherent what I’ve observed in humans is the name.
11:42
But what goes with that God laughs sometimes. I always imagine God having a great sense of humor, that, that, that, okay, human beings need to feel special, but yet they need to belong. In other words, they need to stand out but they need to be part of the pack, which are contradictory, right. I want to be. I want to be like everybody I just want to be more, more like it was that in the communism they used to say that we’re all equal than but some are more equal than others? That we’re talking about the regime of the Communist Party. Okay, so I I see that was church and I think that there…It’s kind of nice though because I don’t think that word discussion we’re having is a brand new discussion I think this has been going on for centuries of people that will discuss whether they’ve been the victim of being judged or it’s just an observation, where they might feel accepted, maybe even looked up to, but then they notice that other people are not getting that same treatment.
12:49
Okay, so now. With that in mind, the understanding that good is can be manipulative, and also very subjective. Now we go back to what I like about in the second paragraph of Kanye his interview where he said, okay, people don’t want me to go to the fashion shows in Paris. They don’t agree with me or what I do or how I whatever, but just because their opinion isn’t going to change my love for what I see which is clothing and creativity and, and I love going to these shows and it’s other people are kind of whacked out because I’m there. I’m not interacting with them I’m interacting with the fashion and the beauty that I see, I like that. The second thing was and now he takes it into the Spirit.
13:41
And he says, so he talks about other people get church and over institutionalized and he says, that’s not going to stop my love for Christ. I’m going to keep on expressing what God has done for my life. I, I completely identify with that. I’m not. But I am a completely different person than Kanye West. I mean, on so many different levels. Right? But I like the sentiment of that, I think that one single thing and it could be that by doing this interview. It’s interesting because he’s leading by example, in that manner but it’s buried within all of his behavior. And so sometimes it’s going to be. It’s difficult for the core, What I would say a positive spiritual essence that seems to be guiding his life, is kind of buried within any of the behavior that might be termed antisocial.
W: Right and i would say that I commend him. And this is why so I actually went to Coachella, but I wasn’t there on the same weekend that he did his, his service. But he brought the message of having a spiritual connection to God, however that is for the people that were there to a music festival that doesn’t have any mention of God, whatsoever in anything else. And that event was so well attended I remember my daughter being so sad that our tickets weren’t for the weekend, that he was going to be there because he had announced afterwards that he would be doing this Sunday Service and. And I just remember thinking to myself you know what? Good on him for not only maintaining that relationship. in spite of what anyone says about him, or what his behavior is. I feel like fundamentally he’s thinking well I have this connection to God. And I have a message and a platform and a microphone that I can use here for good.
15:46
And so he did. And that they even allowed it at Coachella in this day and age where everybody is so hypersensitive about hurting other people’s feelings and stepping on toes and giving the wrong message, where because it was music they allowed it. So for me, I think any song, any sense of bringing you know and I know this is subjective, in the sense of bringing good into the world, where you’re connecting people with that spiritual side of themselves, whether they realize that that spiritual essence is there or not, is helpful. He cut straight through to it and said, I’m going to do this because it’s the right thing to do.
C: There’s a documentary on Netflix about Coachella, and that goes kind of chronologically from the beginning of Coachella and then all the milestones and the acts that came in and that kind of stuff. And he’s obviously near the end because it was fairly recent.
16:39
Now, you throw into the mix that yes he did go and he did bring his choir he’s got a huge choir. And, you know, the services are filled with joy and singing and, and the music feels contemporary and that’s really cool. But in the documentary they explained that he, whether it was him or his group made some demands where they wanted to be in this particular part. Coachella is in a big Polo field. And in, in this one particular part, they wanted to have the producers promoters had to build a little hill, because he wanted to be at the top of the hill, and he wanted to have people just gather around the hill, but they had to construct a hill, and then put grass on it, and you know what I mean? and they had to get it done fairly quickly because he decided at the last second. Now, what I have read about a lot of people of privilege, is that they work on a completely different schedule, they don’t show up when they’re supposed to show up or they make demands at the last second or whatever.
17:46
So that’s the kind of thing that I’m talking about like, okay, it ended up being this really cool thing. But what was required. Like it’s kind of like, it’s my ball and I’m going home, I have this thing that I would like to present that will make Coachella even more significant it’ll be, you’ll get a ton of publicity out of it and and all that kind of stuff. And the results of it will be very positive. But you have to do this extra stuff for me that that’s where I go with.
Now we go back to the definition of good. Like what makes a person good? I don’t know that’s so subjective but I think that it’s all based on, it’s almost like it doesn’t make any difference what you’re thinking, or what you’re feeling because that’s so internal. I think how you are, how do you put it? I don’t want to say judged but but whatever this is a synonym for that, you know, whatever it is, the, the criteria for evaluating a person and their character is on what they do. Because that’s the only thing that we can see, you know, and I think that’s what matters and so now when people start putting parameters on what makes a good person, based on what you do. Now, now we’ve opened up, kind of like a whole Pandora’s box of of discussion. Does that make sense?
W: For sure because you might be able to do something good today. But then, every other day, you’re not doing good, you know and and and I see that a lot in the world and the people that even attend my church where it’s like, well you’re here every Sunday, which is great because that’s where you should be. But what are you doing in between? And so I could see where, you know, guess if he’s making I’m sure you had some creative vision about how this went, you know, because everything in Coachella is on stages there isn’t anything like what he described and I didn’t get to see, I didn’t research it afterwards I just remember my daughter just was like oh my gosh I wish we could have been there. And hearing about it from her friends at saw, they all just thought it was amazing. And so, but yeah I feel like, if you’re, you’re right on the sense of doing good that you hope that everything is good about it but. But did he just fall in the same trap that he said churches have? Where you know churches are giving you these parameters of what you should be doing in order to do you know to feel close to God and did he just do the same thing in his performance, or it’s like, oh well I’ll do this performance but you have to do this like is it a condition?
C: Oh, there’s a separation between the promoters and the audience. And I think that for the audience, it was all, it seemed like it was all positive. It was just that the promoters had to go through extra effort and cost in order to create the theater, you know, so to speak. So I think we need to separate those two things, you know it’s it’s just a fascinating thing. Okay, we’ve run out of time for this episode but I do definitely want to dive into further into what constitutes a good person. Yeah, I think that’d be a great conversation.
20:58
Okay, excellent that’s the end of this episode of Spiritual Cake, listen we’re in the process of constructing all of our ways to contact us the websites and social media and all that kind of stuff and when we get all of that up, we will let you know because we would love for you to engage with us ask us questions, make your point for whatever we talk about, because this is an ongoing discussion and by all means, you are all invited to to participate. Well that’s it for this episode of Spiritual Cake. This is Clinton on behalf of Wendy We will see you next time.
