Heaven and the After-Life. The three levels of Mormon heaven. “The Untethered Soul” by Michael A. Singer. “Journey of Souls” by Michael Newton, Ph.D.
Clint 0:00
Hi, everybody, welcome to the spiritual cake podcast, we talk about anything and everything that has to do with the spiritual side of human beings. You know who we are. They think that is beyond just what we think and what we feel and see that spiritual thing that we’re constantly trying to figure out. My name is Clint hufft. And with me is my co host, Wendy Dahl, Wendy.
Wendy 0:23
Hello,
Clint 0:27
Hello. We are in different cities. We’re about 50 miles away from each other, I think right now, something like that. That’s the beauty of technology. I love that. And just to be clear, faithful listener, if you are becoming a faithful listener, or if you’re just tuning in for the very first time, neither Wendy or I are official clergy. We have extensive education, I guess is the best way to say that because we both grew up in relatively conservative Christian environments. But we also have been exposed to a tremendous amount of different theologies and philosophies and cultures through our work in the event industry. And then also we’ve done our own kind of exploration, I guess is the best way to say that. Is that a good way to sum that up? Wendy?
Wendy 1:12
Yes.
Clint 1:21
Okay, perfect. I okay. Now you were raised Mormon. And I was raised Lutheran.
I also have another podcast called the Jew Next Door Podcast, and it’s in the Apple Store and anybody who wants to look it up Jew Next Door Podcast, and it is exactly what it says it is. My next door neighbor is an Orthodox Jew, and we just talk about why? What do you do? Why are you doing that, like kosher and how they dress and how they observe the Sabbath and stuff like that.
And then it occurred to me, honestly, it occurred to me maybe two days ago, maybe that’s not even true, maybe just this morning, when I’m golfing. I’m listening to podcasts. And, and so I it occurred to me that we probably should talk about this The next thing after this life, the afterlife the beyond this life. And I’m using these words specifically, because everybody has a different idea of what it is or what the potential is or if there is anything. So does that make sense so far?
Wendy 2:21
It does perfectly. Yes.
Clint 2:23
Now, the reason I set the table by telling you about Jew Next Door Podcast is because he has a different way of looking at the world. We haven’t gotten into, I believe in one of our very first conversations with him. He’s orthodox, very what he calls observant, but he just in casual conversation said and the world is 5000 years old.
And I said, it caught me and I said, it’s exactly that? He says, Yeah, Yeah, it is. And I thought, okay, because I don’t know. You know what I mean? I’ve only lived my life. I have no idea what happened before me. So then I thought now, this is Where I’m going to dig into your background, because there’s a certain aspect of Mormonism for want of a better way of describing it. That is a mystery to me. And one of them is correct me if I’m wrong.
Oh, I need to give you this background. Wendy, you’re gonna love this. My first year of college, I’m at a community college. And I’m taking a choir class because I love to sing, but I’m scared to sing in public. So I figure if I’m surrounded by people, it’s a safe environment. So I’m taking a choir class and there’s this girl that is stunningly beautiful. She’s Mormon. We strike up a conversation. She tells me she’s Mormon. Then I’m at the house where I grew up with, I’m still living at home and a knock on the door and there’s two Mormon missionaries.
And I said, Oh my gosh, come on in. And that probably caught them by surprise because I don’t think they get that kind of invitation very often. And they came in and and kind of taught me about You know the Mormon way of looking at things and one of the things that I remember and my you know memory is kind of very it’s not always exact is that there’s different levels to heaven in the Mormon religion. First of all, is that true?
Wendy 4:19
Yes, they call it actually Three Degrees Of Glory. okay yes and so that would be the telestial, the terrestrial and the celestial are the three different levels.
Clint 4:35
That’s two “t”s and a “c”?
Wendy 4:37
Yes. Telestrial, terrestrial and Celestial.
Clint 4:40
Only three?
Wendy
Yes, only three.
Clint 4:54
I don’t know why I thought there were seven. Oh, you know what that is? That’s like Dante says something like, blah blah, blah. That’s not the Mormonism thing. Okay, please proceed.
Wendy 5:00
So in The Three Degrees Of Glory. We see this life on Earth as a trial period or the period where we are proven to determine our worthiness of which degree of glory that you’re able to live in forever. And so the telestial kingdom is the lowest of the three and that’s where pretty much all the bad people go for lack of a better term, or I would say the lesser of the the good people would go and it’s still a degree of glory where it’s better than the Earth. And then the terrestrial kingdom is where everyone goes, that isn’t exalted to live with God and God would be the celestial kingdom. And so, in the Mormon faith to go to the celestial kingdom some of the requirements are that you would need to go through a Mormon temple and have certain ordinances performed so that You are anointed to become a person that could go, depending on how you lived your life, if you were a good person and you followed all of the doctrine and all of the the rules that apply to being a good person, that you would be exalted to be able to live with God and that God dwells in the celestial kingdom. And so some of the key factors of that are being sealed in the temple, meaning that you and your spouse are sealed together for time and all eternity. And that that is a requirement of living in the celestial kingdom. I know that there’s been things out there about not being sealed to another person because there’s a lot of single people that end up dying and they don’t want them to be cast out, so to speak, and that there are saving ordinances as they call them where you’re still to your parents or That kind of thing. And so it’s very family oriented. And the way that you conduct your behavior and that you are a good person to be able to get into the celestial kingdom. And so the way I remember learning as a child about these three kingdoms was that in the celestial kingdom, it’s paradise and that everything’s amazing. And I remember specifically, they used plants to show you the difference between the three and so the plant that they use for the celestial kingdom was this beautiful blooming plant, everything was alive and green and just a beautiful plant. The second plant that they use for the terrestrial kingdom is essentially the second degree of heaven or degree of glory, where I would consider everybody that’s not a Mormon person or that couldn’t be exalted that they would dwell within and it was still a beautiful plant. It just didn’t have the flowers. And so it was still Heaven, everything was amazing, but you weren’t necessarily considered to be living in the presence of God. And then the third degree of glory, that telestial kingdom was similar to how plants are here where it was still a thriving plant, but it wasn’t like as beautiful as the other two still beautiful. And that would be where everybody that didn’t qualify to be in either of the other two kingdoms would go. And so, essentially, based on the degree of glory is based upon your activities here on this earth and whether or not you proved yourself worthy to live in the presence of God and be exalted to that third state, the highest state.
Clint 8:45
First of all, thank you. You did a good job.
Wendy 8:50
I was taught and so that you could see it in the mind of a child.
Clint 8:55
Well, the whole plant thing, I immediately started to get nervous because Do you drink wine?
Wendy 9:02
No.
Clint 9:04
Okay, so now if I come to your house, my wife keeps saying you never show up empty handed. And so then we usually would bring a plant. But now I’m thinking of the significance or symbolism of a plant that we give you. Holy moly, we have to find like this beautiful blooming plant. You know what I mean? I want you to believe that your house is celestial, right?
Wendy 9:24
That wasn’t necessarily meant as a literal way of defining things. You could bring us any kind of plant. We’re not looking at it, like, are you celestial or not?I used that example as the way I was taught so that as a young person, I could understand and visualize the beauty of the Three Degrees Of Glory. But we don’t look at plants like are you celestial or not? Like it’s not a literal thing by any stretch.
Clint 9:52
I could visualize the beauty though. That’s just the way it struck me. Yeah, okay. It’s all good. I just thought that now that we’ve had that piece of information passed between us that you would get a kick out if I showed up with a flower.
That’s nice. Generally, I remember that the missionaries that came in to our house, I remember there’s something along the lines, I mean, the the descriptive words that they used, were fascinating. Because they said no matter what, when you die, you’re going to a better place. Right? They said, even Hitler, is going to go to a much better place than here. And we think that once he sees then he’ll repent or whatever it is, right.
Wendy 10:42
Oh, can I make a clarification too? What they were telling you about Hitler going to because it has a degree of heaven, the third degree, even though it’s not exalted to be with God, it’s still a better place. But you also have the opportunity to move up. Let’s say you wanted to level up In the afterlife, that you would also have that opportunity where it’s not like, Oh, you were a bad person on earth, and so forever, in the in the endless days to come and the foreverness the things that are Eternity is the word I was looking for. But that there isn’t like you’re stuck here, but there’s always like, God isn’t going to be like, hey, you’re going to be in hell and damnation forever. It would be like, he wants you to live with him and be exalted, and that there is going to be that opportunity even after death. And that it isn’t like this final thing. It’s just that where you start after you die is different is all. So I don’t want anyone listening to this thinking that oh my gosh, if I’m not Mormon, and I’m not exalted, and I’m not gone through the temple that you’re going to be cut off because that’s not it at all.
Clint 11:56
I’m so glad you clarified that. I thought about that while you were describing it and I thought about the people that would probably have some sort of theological.
Wendy 12:02
Oh, for sure.
Clint 12:03
Yeah, yeah. But the other thing is that if I understand correctly, as far as the Mormons are concerned, there’s no hell.
Wendy 12:13
Well, I believe that they call it outer darkness. And, I believe that the way that outer darkness is best described, I mean, obviously, they always give all of these loose terminology but outer darkness to me would mean that it’s almost like a to me outer darkness would be a self inflicted thing where you feel shame. Or you feel like what you did was bad, and everyone around you knows what you did was bad and that you did that. Let’s say, you were a murderer, and like Hitler, let’s say so to speak, that Hitler knows what he did and they say hindsight is 2020 he sees how bad it was. And that outer darkness to him would be feeling that grief and condemning, like self condemnation, knowing that what they did was wrong. And so that would be my perception of outer darkness. It’s not necessarily a literal sense of, you’re in the dark. And that’s it. But that’s my interpretation of outer darkness. I’m sure that there’s other interpretations of it as well. But yes, hell does exist, but it’s not like everybody thinks of fire and brimstone, it’s more of like, you are so sad about what you did in your life that you don’t feel like you’re able to go to heaven and that you would step outside of heaven saying I’m not worthy.
Clint 13:50
Yeah. So like there’s a separation. I’ve heard so many different explanations of what’s beyond, and there’s so much that’s been written and passed down through stories and artists are constantly imagining what it is, through all different forms of art. And it’s a fascinating thing, I am of the opinion that there are as many religions as there are people on the face of the earth. Because, for instance, while you were describing that, I think you use the phrase, it’s my understanding that or the way I interpret that is or whatever it is, and I think that’s just kind of what everybody goes through. And using the Mormon church as an example.
Again, this is just two news reports. And so I don’t know what’s actually factual. The Catholic Church has gone through this as well. Where the social world, the world that we live in for one, I don’t know how to explain that. It’s just what people do in society. Then there’s a shift, there’s adjustments and the churches to their credit will adjust with it. It may take a long time, but they’ll adjust with it depending upon upon what’s going on in the world. First of all, does that concept Make sense?
Wendy 15:13
That makes sense. Yes.
Clint 15:15
Okay. So I think people do that too. Oh, as an example, I think with the Catholic Church where they said, No meat on Friday, and I think they started to relax that. Or there was this thing in the Mormon church where anybody who was black or a person of color was not considered for the higher levels of the Mormon Church. Have you ever heard that?
Wendy 15:40
Yeah, I mean, obviously, it was before I was alive, but I remember hearing them talk about how they wouldn’t give African American men the priesthood, and so in the priesthood is that essentially heavenly powers here on Earth, and that they’re bestowed upon the men of the church, and that They were not qualified to have that which is heartbreaking to me. I couldn’t imagine being a member of the church and being denied that right that was given to every other men in the church. But thankfully, that isn’t in existence today.
Clint 16:15
Right? They’ve evolved. And you know what, you can look at a lot of different institutions, I mean, country clubs in the deep south that finally, finally, would allow somebody of color to be a member or even a woman to be a member. If you can imagine that kind of exclusivity.
Wendy 16:33
I didn’t live in that world because I think my heart would have been broken for those people. And I would have been like, no, they’re coming. They’re doing what I’m doing. Yeah, I know. I see beyond that. I see them for their soul. And I feel like for any religion that is discriminatory because of whatever that is. You know, as far as your race. They’re missing the point. They’re missing the point that We’re all sons and daughters of God, and that what our flesh is, is irrelevant, and that it’s a soul thing. And so I’m so glad that I didn’t live in that time because I don’t know that I wouldn’t. They always say that God isn’t going to give you something that you can’t deal with. I don’t know that I could have dealt with that at all. Because I see people for their souls and who they are inside versus the outside.
Clint 17:26
Well, that’s beautiful. Let me just acknowledge that that’s beautiful.
The thing is, years ago, it occurred to me that one of the things that Okay, let me stop,
I need to give you some background on this. I read somewhere that in the 20th century, there were two basic schools of psychiatry. There was the one from Freud.
And then there was Carl Jung and the difference was that Freud, Sigmund Freud, his main idea was that the primary motivator for human beings was sex. But Carl Jung said the primary motivator for human beings was the fear of death. And I kind of resonated more with Carl Jung’s idea that what I observed is that most people, the fear of death, really is kind of at the top of what people are concerned about.
First of all, does that make sense so far?
Wendy 18:40
Yes. And ironically, I was just listening to this book called The Untethered Soul and they had a whole chapter about this.
Clint 18:46
Do they really? Do you know the author of The Untethered Soul?
Wendy 18:52
Let me look it up. But I remember thinking somebody had mentioned to me that it was a life altering book for them and I thought myself, Well, if it’s a life altering book, I should look into that. And so I joined, they have I think it’s a couple apps on my phone that are through the library system. Libby is one of them, where you can go in and borrow books for free. So I’m no longer paying for audio books, which is a delight because they are expensive. But they actually had this book The Untethered Soul for free and it was on on demand like you didn’t have a lot of the books that you want to listen to have like four to six week wait periods until you can listen to them where The Untethered Soul was not part of that and you can just download it and listen to it so I did. Let me see what it says the author is it says The Untethered Soul the journey beyond yourself book by Michael Allen Singer. And I’ll tell you that this book to me was very unlikely expected where I had no, I suppose I’m one of those critical thinkers that wants to hear the book through the entirety and then make my assumption or my observation about what it was. And so it travels through the way a person thinks. And then it goes into the way that they feel. And then it talks about the soul. And then it’s talking about death. And then in the very end, it actually brings in biblical references. And so here I’m thinking at the beginning of the book that this book is like super woo is I would call it where it’s about energy and all the things that are unrelated to matters of the Spirit, matters of the religious spirit. I would say that in the end, it tapped into that, but, there was a whole section on death and fearing death, and how you should not fear death. And I just thought, wow, this is a compelling stance because it’s essentially telling you as a soul that you will go on forever and that death is not final. And that you should not fear death where death is actually the grantor of life. And the question that was posed was, if death were to tell you, you had seven days left of your life, how would you live it? And I thought to myself, Well, isn’t that a question? We all should not necessarily from the perspective, or the perspective of death giving you the question, but isn’t that a question we should be asking is, if we knew our time on Earth was limited, which it is because we all die? How differently would you live it? And would you live it under the pretense of fear? No, you wouldn’t live it under the pretense of fear otherwise you wouldn’t be living well.
Clint 21:46
Okay, that’s it. That’s an interesting point that you just made. I have a feeling that’s a whole other episode. The reason I say that is because I think that so many emotions coexist in terms of survival. You have to have fear, but also, we were born with humor. We’re born with joy and we’re born with love. All of those things coexist inside a human being. But getting back to the hereafter or the life after death if there is, then it’s interesting.
When I first met my wife, she had just read or was reading a book called The Journey of Souls, which was a research that was done with people that had that came back from the dead. You know, that whole thing about I rise out of my body, and my soul was looking down on the room and that whole thing? Well, there are some people who went further than that, and then they come back into their body and they just tell what they’ve learned. And there’s documentation of all kinds of stuff. And I’m not going to get into the meat of the book. But the reason I bring that up is it kind of illustrates the point from an artistic level. There are so many different interpretations of life after death.
There’s a buddy of mine that has been a friend of mine since I was in high school, we went to the same church. So we have that same foundation, right? But then I got into a yoga center and started studying Eastern philosophies. And he followed me into that, except for he really went deep.
So now we’re all these decades later, and he never stopped. I mean, he’s one of those rare individuals that will really just kind of follow his own path, He’s really more of a scientific thinker. And so he’s not going to take anything just because something feels good to somebody. He’s going to say, is there any science behind this and what’s the deal? So consequently, he experimented with what he ate and, and how he meditated and all that kind of thing. And so, a while ago, I said to him, we were corresponding back and forth. And I said, Well, the unseen the the subtext was, after all of your research and experimentation and contemplation that was what I didn’t write. But that was the subtext of the question, which was, what do you think happens when we die? And his answer was brilliant, and it was perfect for me. He says, Well, I don’t know. But I know God will take care of me. And I thought, that’s good enough for me.
Because I can’t I can’t wrap my mind around all the things that are out there because we only deal with human minds, right? Which is limited when it comes to our perception of everything. Well, every human mind is limited. There are some human minds that can comprehend certain concepts, perhaps mathematical, perhaps philosophical, that other human minds can’t wrap their mind around, because they’re designed to do something different. The story that I heard was that Einstein was kind of absent minded, that sometimes he would forget to put on pants or something like that. And yet here was the brilliant mind that you know, time, space and all that kind of stuff and so on. There’s all these different ways of thinking. I mean that both ways. I mean, the way your brain works, and the concepts that your brain is able to process.
And so I think that includes with what we think about the hereafter. And I think that we’re almost out of time. But I think that religion was created, if you will, to help people deal with the fear of death. There are rules to help them deal with living within a society: Thou shalt not this and thou shalt not that. But also I think, to give hope, to kind of allay that fear of death to the best of our abilities by giving people hope for something, whatever is beyond.
I have a friend who is an atheist. He says, I’m an atheist, and I think that when you’re done, you’re done. And he says, and you know what? I’m okay with that. I’m going to live this life. I’m gonna do the best I can. And when I’m done, I’m done. And I’m okay with that. And I thought
Well, I’m okay with that.
You know, there are some people who think that it doesn’t make any difference what you think. Whatever is supposed to happen beyond this life is going to happen anyway, whether you believe in it or you don’t. There are some people who think that you have to believe a certain thing in order to have a certain thing after you die. And my attitude towards all of that is number one, anything is possible. Number two, I have no clue.
Wendy 26:28
Well, and I feel like foundationally you’re right on as far as religion trying to help people not fear death. And I’ve even contemplated that about the Mormon faith, thinking about will we all be together with our family after we die? We get sealed here on earth to be bound in heaven to deal with that and same thing with being with your spouse and so I’ve contemplated that very question myself, and I agree that God isn’t gonna deny or turn his back on us.
Like, I think of God as if he was our parent and would I ever do that to one of my children. Would I ever turned my back on them? No, I would not. I want the best for them. Would I ever want them to be left in eternal darkness? No, I would not. Would I give them every opportunity to live with me or be with me? Yes, I would. Do I think it’s gonna be even better than any words can describe? I do. And so, I agree with that statement that your friend said.
Clint 27:41
Wait, Which one?
Wendy 27:43
The one where he said that it’s up to God and that it’s beyond our comprehension.
Clint 27:49
Yes. Yep. Yeah, I agree. And you know what that does? For me, it frees me up. It allows me to relax and let go of that thing that I choose not to worry about, because I have, well, see, this is where we get into theologies and religious dogma, because there are some people who would argue we’re going a little bit over time, but I just want to kind of put a bow on this, or a pin or whatever, some kind of object that marks a thing, that there are some people who would say, No, no, you You are in control of what happens after this and you have to behave a certain way. But then on the other hand, have you ever heard the concept that if you repent, with your last dying breath, no matter how bad you were during your life, if you repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior with your last dying breath, you’re saved. You ever heard that?
Wendy 28:49
I have heard that. I don’t know that I necessarily agree with that. But I have heard it. I mean, isn’t that why they read people their last rites?
Clint 28:57
Oh, you know what, that’s probably true. But I don’t know, I have to talk to my friend. There’s another podcast that I do. It’s called the Wedding Ceremony Podcast. And my co host for that is JP Reynolds and JP Reynolds was a Jesuit priest. And so I think I’ll ask him about that.
Wendy 29:14
That’s a great question.
Clint 29:15
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good idea.
Well, Wendy, I think we’ve solved a lot of problems today.
Wendy 29:24
Well, at least we’ve identified that you know, it, it’s a very personal thing even within like you said, even within a certain religion that there’s that there’s different understanding in different levels of, I guess, a belief in what the afterlife is and and that’s okay.
Clint 29:44
It is okay. And I think in one of our future episodes, we will discuss the emotional consternation of wanting somebody to be there in the afterlife and, thinking that they need to change their behavior to accomplish that. And what role does a person have in that goal? Or in that process? You know what I mean? It’s kind of like, yeah, that’s pretty self explanatory. We’ll talk about all that. Oh, my gracious, because I think the afterlife that probably is never going to go away in terms of topic of discussion. I think there’s so many different levels to that.
Mm hmm. Well, there you go. Thanks, Wendy.
Wendy 30:27
Anytime.
Clint 30:29
How about next Monday?
Wendy 30:31
That’s great.
Clint 30:33
Well, there you go, everybody. That’s it. It’s an open conversation and we would love for you to join in with us, you can reach us a number of different ways spiritualcake.com. You can certainly contact us through that. And we also are an Instagram What’s our handle on Instagram?
Wendy 30:48
I believe it’s just spiritual cake.
Clint 30:50
Yep, spiritual cake. And then if you want to email us, it’s spiritualcake[email protected] spiritual cake podcasts. gmail.com on Facebook, we are spiritual cake podcasts. And however you reach out to us we would love to hear from you ask us questions, or give us something that we can discuss or perhaps even point us towards a particular source of thinking and whatever, whatever works for you works for us and we really appreciate that. Alright, that’s it. For this episode of the spiritual cake podcast. This is Clint and on behalf of Wendy, we will see you next time.
