Should your child experience a religious rite of passage? What is the process for a Mormon missionary? Clint’s daughter had a Bat-Mitzvah. How does a parent protect their child from social shunning if they don’t go through a traditional coming-of-age ritual?
Clint 0:00
Hi, everybody, welcome to the spiritual cake podcast where we talk about anything and everything that has to do with the spiritual side of humanity. Far beyond… Well, I don’t know, that’s an interesting thing to say whether it’s far beyond the mental, the physical, the emotional, the spiritual realm and the spiritual side of us, which is really important, as far as we can tell, to the human condition. My name is Clint hufft. And with me is Wendy Dahl, Wendy.
Wendy
Hi, there.
Clint
Oh, you’re changing it up. For those of you tuning in for the first time, that’s the first “Hey, there”. Usually it’s Hello.
For those of you who are joining us for the first time, just to be completely clear, or transparent, or whatever the term is, neither Wendy nor I are ordained clergy. But we do have a tremendous curiosity for everything that would be considered of the spiritual side of humanity, that sort of thing. Wendy, I had something that I wanted to talk about today.
Okay, take this with a grain of salt. But remember, I told you in a previous episode that Mormon missionaries came to my house and kind of just taught me about the Mormon thing. Because I was attracted to this girl and she was Mormon. (That never panned out, just so you know, nothing ever happened with that), but I was really, really appreciative of the education that these guys gave me. And they had the educational tools. They had one of those little boards with the felt things that would stick on it.
Wendy
wow, yeah, I know, what it was. Okay, we’re talking then in the 80s.
Clint
No, in the 70s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wendy 1:50
I was gonna say I grew up with a similar felt board where I remember sitting in church playing with this little felt bored with all these little characters and settings and stuff.
Clint 2:00
When I was growing up in the Lutheran Church, we would have Vacation Bible School every summer. And it would last about two weeks. And it was all ages all the way up to when did we stop? I think it went up to like sixth grade, that sort of thing. And they had all of those educational tools with the little stickers and the felt things. And anyway, so here’s something that came up that I wanted to ask you about in my memory. They said that God actually has human form, that God looks like a man.
Wendy 2:36
Isn’t this interesting? Because the same exact exact topic came up when I was talking with my boyfriend about our last conversation about reincarnation. Oh, and we were talking about the spirit being a physical form of a human.
Clint 2:53
Is your is your boyfriend Mormon?
Wendy
He is.
Clint
Oh, oh, okay. Well, there you go. Okay. No,
Wendy 3:00
Yeah, served a mission. So he knows these things.
Clint 3:02
Ah, well, he kind of had to, to me, isn’t that like a thing?
Wendy 3:06
Yes, it’s a thing.
Clint 3:07
Yeah, it’s a thing. It’s a two year deal in there. And they have to, okay, we’re going to go on an aside here for just a second. It’s my understanding that they have to completely self finance, that they don’t have any control over where they are assigned. It’s a two year deal. And I always pictured them, like in the play the Book of Mormon, where they have dark pants and a white short sleeve shirt and a tie. Now the guys that came to my house, were in suits. That’s what I remember.
Wendy 3:37
That has been modified over the years. So traditionally, yes, that is exactly how things ran. But I would say within the past few years, they started to modify the different mission options out there. So yes, traditionally, they were the white shirt. You know, with the black slacks that you see in the Book of Mormon stage performance. Now you can do all kinds of service missions. I got an email the other day where they were looking for missionaries to serve locally to be like a historical tour guide for different pioneer locations throughout Southern California, across the country and stuff.
Clint 4:20
Gosh, I would do that in a heartbeat.
Wendy 4:22
Right? Well, and I feel like there’s a lot of people out there that would do that in a heartbeat, where they become kind of like a tour guide, where you’re just giving people information about things. And so, the traditional scope of a mission does still exist, where it is generally self funded. But there’s often times where there’s other people in the community that support the kids. And so that when they go out that everybody has an opportunity to but yes, it is generally self funded. It’s generally about two years, even though we’re seeing things modified now where if you have special needs, it could be six months, and so it’s kind of fun to watch the flexibility happen. But you’re right to some degree, if you’re doing a traditional mission, have no control over where you’re going to be sent. And if you’re doing a modified mission, you do have a little bit more flexibility and where you go.
Clint 5:14
There are some places in the world that I would love to go and spend two years. But there are other places in the world where I would really rather not go.
I’m of the age where when I was growing up, there was a draft into the military. And that was obviously a huge thing, because when I was coming of age, we were in the Vietnam War, and I knew people that got drafted and went. And I was very, very, very lucky that my draft number was so high that it wasn’t an issue for me. But my dad served in two wars: world war two and the Korean War and was seriously affected by that. We didn’t understand what PTSD was back in the day, but that’s what he had. And there was a guy that I knew that was really smart. And he got a double major in college in philosophy and theology. And he was smart enough to test and qualify to be an interpreter. So even though he was drafted and he had to serve, he was able to keep himself out of combat because he learned Vietnamese. Anyway, so that’s what I imagined with without all of the war stuff. Wait a minute, you’ve got two sons.
Wendy 6:34
One of them is older. What’s the age? 18 What do you go 16-18 when you go now it’s down to 18. It used to be 19. But they changed the age or the youngest age that you could be to be 18 and so he did have the opportunity to go. But at the time, I think it was the year of his 18th year he went on a cruise with his dad and picked up a parasite and spent several years battling that and is still in fact, having issues dealing with the parasite that he picked up.
It’s something where you hope that when you go on these adventures that you don’t get sick like that. He’s been dealing with that so for him to go would be an extreme burden upon whoever he was with because he was always sick. I mean, he was down under 100 pounds and super sick. So he didn’t have the chance to go.
My younger one, he talks about it but I think he feels like it’s still a few years off and you know, when you’re only 15 years old, it’s like a that’s so far away. It’s three years. So, my daughter, she’s 20. She could also go she wanted to but it’s not something that she feels is a priority for her. So there is a choice. I remember being raised with my brothers. I had one brother that did go on a mission. He went to Japan. My younger brother chose not to but back then I think well and even today it’s just assumed that you’re gonna go on a mission by the older generation. The younger generations looking at it now like, well hold up. I don’t know that I necessarily want to be sent to you know. I’ve had a lot of kids that I know get sent to the serve rural countries and they pick up bugs and they get sick and then it impacts them for long time. A lot of them go out and nothing wrong happens where they have a joyful experience. And I’d say by far and wide, most missionaries will give you that response where they loved their mission. And they were glad that they went. But my kids, I haven’t seen the enthusiasm there for it and I don’t feel like I want to be the type of parent that pushes them into doing something that they don’t want to do.
Clint 9:03
Well, I have a similar story, I guess that has nothing to do with me directly. Let me explain. My wife is Jewish, right? She did not grow up in a temple. But she’s Jewish, and she’s proud of her heritage and so on and so forth. And so then my daughter, who’s now 21, it’s tradition in the Jewish community, that you go to Hebrew school for a couple years. And then when you’re 13, you get Bar Mitzvah, Bar Mitzvah for boys, Bat mitzvah for girls. And my wife found a rabbi who was very liberal. And my daughter bought in. She just said, Yeah, that’d be kind of, I really, truthfully, I don’t know what she said. But the point is that she did it. And so for less than a year, she was tutored by this Rabbi and then we had a Bat mitzvah ceremony. It was great. One of my wife’s friends lives in a condominium community and they have a Common Room, and we invited about 40 people. And we did the whole thing. And I will be honest with you, because I’m not Jewish. And I’ve never been through that, even though I watched when I was editing videos for a company that did this sort of thing. I watched a lot of ceremonies, and I always thought it was fascinating. But I didn’t realize the emotional effect, as a father from going through this. And, there’s a point in the ceremony, the child has to read from the Torah and, read in Hebrew. And then there’s a point where the parents get up and say something, and, okay, Wendy, I don’t know if you know this about me, but I am a blubbering idiot when it comes to certain things. In fact, when my mom passed, I’m the public speaker of the family. I’m the guy that gets up all the time. I’ve done a million different things. And they said you want to say anything? I said, No, I’ll lose it. I just know. I will. Because I can’t control it, it just comes over me. And so the same thing happened when I get up and I’m looking at my 13 year old daughter, and I have to say something about her. And immediately I’m overcome. And you know that trying to talk while you’re crying thing? Yeah, it’s not so pretty.
So that was a thing. And my I think my daughter’s happy that she did it, even though she didn’t continue with any Hebrew studies or rabbinical studies or any of that kind of stuff. Now we live in a Jewish neighborhood. So for like, on the corner, there’s a family that has three sons, and they were all in. I’m going somewhere with this because I think it’s fascinating. Anyway, my son who is just turned 15 it’s just not his ball of wax. It’s not his thing at all. And so he does not want to do it. So that’s fine. So what I’m curious about talking about the missionaries and there are some countries where you have to do the military, like Israel, is like that you have to join the military. And there’s a bunch of other countries that are like that. And that’s just part of the deal. It doesn’t mean you have to go to war, because maybe they’re not in war, but you have to serve.
Now I’m thinking about religious organizations that have this process. And I really do believe that any religious organization that has a process, that has a structure or kind of a system, that the reason it was created, had good intentions, honestly, good intentions. Now, I would say 20% of that would be to uphold the financial institution that is a church or a synagogue. I mean, there is money involved. I mean, that’s why growing up in the Lutheran Church at the some point during every single service, they would pass the plate. And in the Jewish communities, I do believe there’s no guesswork. If you want to belong to the synagogue, here’s what it’s going to cost.
But the point is, is that if the structures are in place and you’re expected to do certain things, then I know that we can all of a sudden move into that dark area where people are judging you if you don’t do certain things, because then it goes into things that are not officially structured. It’s just what the community has decided is appropriate behavior.
Wendy 13:24
But that happened to my older son. Definitely. And it was kind of sad to watch it, too. I would sit and talk with him at length about being resilient to it because I mean, even from his dad’s side of the family, all the uncles tag teamed, you need to go on a mission. And then, within the community, even among the girls that he’s dating, it’s like a criteria where they’re like, Oh, well, you haven’t been on a mission. I don’t even want to date you.
Clint 13:53
That’s really sad.
Wendy 13:55
I am not kidding. Not kidding. No. Like that is one of the measurements that these girls are raised with. And it’s unfortunate, in particular, because it wasn’t something that he had control over. I mean, if you were to have seen my son during the period of time where he could have gone on a mission, you would have seen a frail, bony, Oh, it was so sad. And he was sick every day. And he couldn’t keep any food in his system. It was a real struggle. Even now he feels like he’s not good enough. You know, he’s older. He’s 22. And he’s out there in the world trying to meet people in the same religious community and he’s still being judged for not going on a mission. So it is very unfortunate.
Clint 14:50
Well, I do believe that everybody, whether they have a religious or whatever, everybody gets to decide what the criteria is for who they’re going to spend that kind of quality time.
Wendy 15:01
you’re giving two years of your life to something.
Clint 15:04
And just to be fair, I mean, I’ve seen this in all kinds of organized spiritual groups. I mean, when I was at the yoga center and they were very open when it came to What do you want to worship or what did you connect with or whatever. I think I told you about what they considered the front of the the ashram, (I say ashram. Seriously, it was in a strip mall). But the front of it, they had, I would say, maybe a dozen, maybe 10 to a dozen little picture frames. And they would have images of most of the deities that you would connect with, like Jesus and Buddha. I’m using deities in a just a general sense. Even had one that was blank for people that just think that God is too big to have a form. But there still was that underlying sense of well, if you’re not doing this, then you’re not really… you’re not really part of the group or whatever it is.
But what I was curious about was I still do believe that everything starts with good intentions, and then people get involved. But it’s interesting to me, what people identify with in regards to a holy life. First of all, just the concept of a holy life. Does that sound familiar? Or can you identify or understand what I’m trying to say?
Wendy 16:37
I can definitely understand that. And I feel like it’s up to interpretation for the individual, what is good and what is right. Where the holy life everybody defines differently.
Clint 16:49
Well, I think everything is defined differently. I go back to the same thing there are as many religions as there are people on the face of the earth. Did you ever see the musical Les Miserables? So it all starts with Jean Val Jean stealing some bread, because he’s trying to feed his family and times are just really rough. And then it devolves into this terrible, terrible journey of his, because he’s branded a thief because he stole some bread to feed his family. And then there’s Aladdin the animated movie, same deal, where they even sing a song about it. I got to steal to live or whatever it is. And he’s a charming figure, right? And so what I’m saying is that it’s so malleable, it’s so subjective in regards to what is considered a holy life, what is considered being on the right spiritual path. And I brought up the obligations of certain things like going on a mission or being Bar Mitzvah or whatever, only because if every individual is looking for The underlying spiritual stream that I think is the undercurrent, what the intentions of whatever the ritual is, I think it’s up to the individual to explore that and interpret it for themselves to figure out what a”holy” life would be. Does that make sense?
Wendy 18:22
Yes.
Clint 18:24
Did you go through something like that?
Wendy 18:27
I think for me, it was more of a personal journey. I know the Mormon doctrine, and I’ve seen all of the facets of, levels of community that people believe is holy or not, and all the different ways that people measure how holy they are in comparison to others, which I think is silly. I believe that that journey is something that you need to discover for yourself and to understand What is it that works for you within the framework of what you know, and learned?
Clint 19:08
I think the comparison process has benefits and detractions. there’s another word for that. What’s the opposite of benefit? A negative side effect? I don’t know, whatever it is. There’s a word for that. Anyway, I think comparing yourself to somebody else can be a very useful tool. However, it can also be destructive. Depending upon whether or not you let the comparison affect your self image in a in a bad way, in a negative way. I think a lot of people have improved or figured out what’s going to help them improve whatever they’re trying to accomplish, whether it be physical or intellectual or whatever, by seeing where they are in comparison. Remember this when our kids were infants? And can they point? Can they follow your finger? And then we look for that comfort of, okay, they’re normal, right? They’re on schedule, or maybe if we’re lucky, they’re even ahead of schedule, depending upon what they’re able to do. And then that continues throughout an entire life, where you look at other people and you figure out, am I on the right path here? Am I thinking clearly on this? Not that it’s the end all be all, but it is. It can be a really helpful tool. But it also has that other side, to be able to filter out somebody else who is judging you, for whatever reason be able to filter out because you have your own anchor of what you’re trying to accomplish. I think that is one of the primary goals of a human being in the effort to have a happy life. Does that make sense?
Wendy 21:00
It does. It’s like finding your own, for lack of a better word, it’s your own home when it comes to being spiritual and figuring out how that works for you. I keep coming back to establishing a house where your house is built upon your whatever governs you as far as your religion or your spiritual beliefs. And how do you want to build your house? And does it feel comfortable to you?
Clint 21:30
Is there a parable Jesus talks about building a house on sand or building it on rock?
Wendy 21:34
Oh, yes, there is.
Clint 21:36
Yeah. And I know it’s metaphorical. I mean, it’s a parable. We can get into all of that, but I think it’s really critical.
Let’s back up a little bit. What do we want our children to have? Most parents want their children to have a better life than the parents have. And the way we interpret that word better, for most people, they don’t want to have to go through the same struggles, or I guess experience the same pain or maybe give them a an advantage of some sort. And I think there’s two sides to that we’re talking about in terms of, can we offer to other people, children or somebody else that maybe is struggling, a foundation, a home beacon or a place where you can always come back and be centered. It’s like we were talking about with meditation, you have to have a thing that’s going to bring you back when the noise starts to get in the way. That’s what I was looking for that anchor of what is a spiritual life? How can we proceed with a center point, with an anchor that will be our home base as all this other information comes at us? Am I saying that right?
Wendy 23:12
You are and I think it illustrates exactly what I was trying to convey that home base that you have for yourself and metaphorically speaking, have a spiritual home, but it also works in your home home. I believe that your home should be a heaven on earth, where people do feel comfortable and joyful and where they look forward to coming to it. And I feel like building your spiritual home in the same way where you look forward to drawing yourself closer to God, you look forward to the positive feelings that you need when the world is crumbling around you or beating you down. And it’s like that safe haven, that place of solace that you can go to where everything is right in the world.
Clint 24:01
We’re almost out of time. But I had a friend decades ago, she was my best friend at the time. And she called me and she was upset. She was kind of stressing out. I said, What’s the deal? She said something about, I feel this, and I don’t really believe that. And that’s not the way a Christian is supposed to be. And I said, Okay, wait, just relax. A Christian supposed to be the way a Christian decides to be. And I said, God is not going to Doom you to hell, because of this thing or that thing. So just take a big deep breath and start with the fact that God loves you. And then you have an anchor point. And then you figure out what feels right to you, what resonates with you and the lessons that you’ve already learned on what doesn’t work. And that’s how you build your own religion or faith. I don’t remember what I said to her but that I needed to give her that sense of comfort that no, no, no, don’t worry about all that other stuff. Just start with right here. And it’s so funny because at the beginning of this episode I was going to talk about what does God look like? And then yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, I listen, I love this so much. Do you have any parting words in regards to what we’ve been talking about in terms of a spiritual anchor?
Wendy 25:22
Yeah, I feel like going forward for the listener, sometimes people are looking for what that spiritual anchor is. And I feel like it’s important to point out that that’s an individual thing. Where you may find it in religion, you may find it in nature, you may find it in so many different places. It may be your structural house, it may be something that is within your soul or your mind. But whatever it is, once you come across it, it will feel like home. I always feel like that whenever I go to church or whenever we do something within our home, or even when we’re out in nature, I feel that sense of home where it feels good. And where it feels like I’m connected more deeply to God than in most other instances.
Clint 26:19
Yeah, I think that we’ve talked about meditation and you mentioned frequencies and the theta and that sort of thing. I think that we’re talking about the same basic concept of there’s something that’s going to resonate with each individual. Something that’s going to just feel right and I think that’s the starting point. Does that make sense?
Wendy 26:41
Absolute sense.
Clint 26:43
Well, there you go, everybody, that’s the way this works with a spiritual cake podcast. By the way, if for people that are wondering why spiritual cake, it’s because cake has many layers. And as we kind of dig through and sort through, we still realize that we’re eating cake. And it’s all great. It’s all a good thing. It’s such a good thing. And listen, you can reach out to us if you want to. Wendy, tell everybody kind of where we are and how they can get in touch with us.
Wendy 27:12
Perfect, the easiest way to find us, is it spiritualcake.com. You can send us a message and join the conversation, you can comment on any of our previous posts of different episodes and join the conversation. We’d love to hear from you. We also are on social media. So if you can click on those social media icons, it’s spiritualcake.com it’ll take you to where we are and you can follow us on there.
Clint 27:36
And you can email us [email protected] and we would love for you to join the conversation because this is a never ending conversation. It’s very open. Remember that if you reach out to us, you are walking into very open arms that want to share the conversation with you. That’s it for this episode of the Spiritual Cake Podcast. This is Clint and on behalf of Wendy, we will see you next time.
