C: Hey everybody, welcome to Spiritual Cake. This is episode #4 where we talk about everything and anything that is spiritual to regular people that just chit chat about what they feel and what they see. This is episode number four. My name is Clint Hufft. And with me is Wendy Dahl when they say Hey,
W: Hello.
Spiritual Cake Podcast: Spiritual Cake Podcast 4 on Apple Podcasts
The difference between how we were raised going to church and how we are raising our children spiritually. The ramifications of divorce within a religious congregation. How a Mormon decides which church to attend. The similarities of the right of passage rituals in different religions. When teenager…
C: That was very direct. That was a very, very proper greeting. That was lovely.
W: Yes, thank you.
C: Now, Wendy and I come from the event industry. I mean, we both have a diverse background. Wendy I think you were in marketing or you did you get your degree in marketing or
W: My degree is actually in Organizational Leadership, but I worked in corporate marketing for six years.
C: Holy Moly, Organizational Leadership. Wow. And I’ve done a number of different things in the Entertainment Industry and so we were both privy to a lot of interfaith non-denominational multi-cultural events in the wedding industry. And then of course, we’ve also done corporate work. And it’s the idea of spirituality and all the different things that we’ve seen and experienced and learned and all that kind of stuff that we thought would be a very interesting conversation, which brings me to, I want to talk to you today about our kids.
You have three children. I have two children. And I was raised going to church. It was just part of our deal. Every Sunday we were going to church and then a lot of times during the week, like for instance, the holidays leading up to Christmas and the holidays leading up to Easter, we would go on Wednesdays, and it was either Lent or Advent and and then, you know, we just had other stuff that we would do at church. And that’s the way I grew up. And I was really comfortable with it. I was really happy in it. And I made a lot of great friends there. Did you grow up going to church?
W: I did. It was very much the same where it was just, it wasn’t even something you questioned. It was just the way life was.
C: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. And I don’t remember. I have three sisters, and I don’t remember any of them questioning going to church. In fact, there was kind of like, we had a hand me down station wagon. My dad bought it for the family. And then it went to my oldest sister and she got it as her car. And then my middle sister got it. And that was her car. And then I got it. And I don’t even think my my younger sister who’s seven and a half years younger than me. I don’t know if she ever made it to that station wagon. But the leadership of the youth group at church would also seem to follow that same kind of sequence, where my older sister was the leader of or the head of that youth group and then my other sister wasn’t, then I was and it just was part of the deal. You know what I mean? Not so much that it was a you know, a birthright but it just seemed to be that was our culture. That’s what we were and it just kind of fell naturally into our into our laps. Were you involved in any way with any kind of groups within the church?
W: We actually had, well as children, they have what they call Primary and that’s where they had back then it used to be on Wednesday nights now it’s held on Sundays. But it was for all kids ages 3-11 and they did you know, activities and there was you know, scripture study, and where they were teaching you value lessons and things like that. So and singing I remember singing as a little girl and I loved singing, like LOVED singing. And so I you know, I used to look forward to church on Sundays because of primary because I could go sing so, when they moved it to Sundays, so that was something that we’ve been involved with. And then growing up as a teenager, they had youth programs similar to many other churches, which is, highly valuable to creating relationships with people with, you know, the similar belief system that you have. And so I really enjoyed being involved with both of those things growing up.
C: Okay To be clear, I grew up in a Lutheran Church and you grew up in the Mormon church. And so it sounds to me like primary for you was the same as Sunday school for me.
W: Exactly.
C: Yeah. Cuz we had on Sunday, we had two church services, we had like an eight o’clock and, uh, I don’t know something after that 10 o’clock anyway, and there was like an hour in between, and that’s when Sunday school was and obviously it was divided up by grades. You know, if you’re in second grade, you’re gonna go with the second grade Sunday school and that sort of thing. And it all just kind of it was all very comfortable with me. I think, though, that I was just kind of an easy to get along kind of kid just generally anyway. Alright, so now I grew up in that environment, you grew up in that environment, it was just a Part of our weekly routine. And when I had children well, okay, now that I’ve got children, I made a conscious decision that my wife grew up Jewish, she did not belong to a Temple. So that whole vibe was not part of her upbringing in terms of having a regular thing that she went to every week. And, and so I also, after I got it when I when I got into college and whatever, I branched out and I stopped going to church, I did go on a regular basis to some other things, but in terms of my exploration and different, you know, schools of thought and whatever. Okay, so then when I had kids, I didn’t, I didn’t belong to a church. And I didn’t feel that I didn’t think that I was going to raise my kids in a particular religion. So that thing that I grew up with has not been a part of my children’s lives. How did how did you think about that and what have you done?
W: So I have a very different vision for when I had kids like I wanted them to have the same things that I had. I wanted them to have memories of singing and learning about, the treasured stories that are in the Bible and having the community around their faith. And so but I will tell you that I feel like it is evolved, obviously, because social media exists and there’s different distractions now in the world where I mean, for us, it was like, there was one TV set in the household, we have 13 channels. It was there was no computer there was, you know, so life was very different. And so we looked forward to those social events where now I feel like the social events have become a detractor from all these other different distractions.
I’ll tell you a funny story actually. So my oldest one, you know, let’s bring it back to singing so they they sing on Mother’s Day and other holidays and things like that. And so there was that they do this, annual primary program where all the kids get up and they do. You know, they share the stories that they were learning and they do the singing and all those fun things. And then my oldest son, I think he had to have been 11. And kind of by the time you’re 11, you’re overdoing those things, because you’re thinking I’m the oldest one up here. These are the little kids. So there he was on the back row, and you couldn’t hear anything, but you could see his mouth saying “Blah, blah, blah, blah,” during the song, and so of course, everybody in the entire congregation looks at me and I’m just cracking up because that’s my kid up there singing, “Blah, blah, blah.” You know, and I so I feel like the attitude towards it has changed a little bit because now I don’t think it’s It’s it’s not what it once was. But I love that they had that upbringing where they’ve got, you know, those, those songs that teach them about, you know, positive values and the stories that help them know where they’re coming from, you know, and where they’re going and why they’re here on the earth and all that stuff. So, so yeah, so my kids always went, and it was important to me to have them involved.
C: But you married a Mormon? Correct?
W: I did. I married a Mormon and we got divorced 15 years into the marriage. And so my kids were I think it was 12, 11 and or maybe 13, 11 and five. So they were still, the oldest one would have been involved just barely in the youth program and the younger two were still in Primary.
C: Right? The reason I brought that up was just that when you started having kids, you guys, you’ve probably already, you know, going to church is probably already a part of your relationship.
W: It was but then, you know, through from the divorce, things changed slightly. And so, the story of the divorce, it’s always tragic when it comes to a very conservative Christian based church where they’re looking at you now like, from, you know, the Sunday prior when you were, “married” to the next Sunday it’s like you just did a 180 and they don’t know what to do with you now. Yeah. And so, you know, and so that was the hinge point for my kids. Were those next three years of “Do we need to go to church to experience being treated like, you know, we had leprosy?” Or do we go for ourselves? Or you know, like, how do we fit now within this congregation that once filled us with so much joy?
C: So how old are your kids now?
W: So now I’ve got 22 to 20 and almost 15.
C: and and do they go to church?
W: They do so and so what happens is after you go through the youth program and you turn 18, they have wards that are specified for young single adults so that they can meet each other. And, and so that my two older kids go to those. And then my youngest one, we actually just moved him to his dad’s ward, because my word has been such a great challenge for him in particular, that I just said, You know what, let’s send him somewhere where he feels more loved. And so we sent him to his dad’s ward. And so how wards work in the Mormon church is it’s all based on where you live like a lot of other churches, their congregations are elective where you could live in a certain city and drive 10 miles to go to that church.
C: Yeah, that’s what we did.
W: Yeah, so in ours, it’s very different where geographically you’re assigned to go to a specific word. And I so I actually remained in the ward that the kids grew up in. And and that wasn’t necessarily a positive thing for them, to be honest. Yeah. And so as a parent, you always look at, well, how can I improve this for my child? And so I did. And I just thought, you know, is it’s not about us sitting together on a bench in church anymore. It’s about their relationship with God.
C: So a little bit of terminology clarification. So a ward would be a specific location or a church or a congregation,
W: A congregation within, let’s say there’s, there’s a building that’s close by it. That is a church. There might be three wards that meet inside that church, just at different times.
C: Yeah. I do feel that it was a real benefit for me to have that education, that biblical education, you know what I mean? Because then, in general conversation or whatever, when somebody makes a reference, I’ll give you an example. My brother in law, my wife’s brother got involved with a theatre company for a while. And there was an original play that he was working on. He, they live in Florida. So he was visiting. And he showed me the script. And it was a, like a one act type of deal. And I skimmed over it. And I because I have a kind of a long background in theater and acting and that sort of thing. So I skimmed over it. And I said, Oh, it’s Sodom and Gomorrah. And this is blank look on both my wife and and my brother in law, they had no idea what that was because they didn’t grow up with that education. But it just like clicked in right away. My kids don’t have that. Although one of my son’s favorite books was this stories from the Bible that was done in poems, kind of like a, it was just perfect for little kids, like, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 years old. It was great. And so it always made me happy whenever he wanted me to read that to him before you sleep. Yeah, it was cool.
Well, there was a right of passage in the Lutheran Church and I think this is also true for Catholicism, where I remember that I went through two years of like a special school Catechism school on Saturday mornings, which was kind of a bummer, because that means I couldn’t go hang out with my junior high friends Friday night because they all went to the movies. But anyway, we went through two years of that. And then there was a, there was a Confirmation service. We’re in front of the entire church. We, as 12 year olds, I think we were 12 we would enter into the congregation, right. And so I remember we all wore white robes and I remember, I think I might still have some photos of this. Is there anything like that? It sounds to me like there’s something like that in the Mormon Church, but it’s at an older age.
W: Well, they have what they call Seminary, which is like an early morning Bible study. So there’s that but it’s not anything like what you know Catholicism has is it called CCD? There’s three C’s in it. I remember the girls that I grew up with had something. And I remember looking through the binder that they had, and it had those letters on it. And I was like, Oh, what’s this? And they were like, Oh, that’s like our little school. So But no, it’s it’s very, I mean, I would say that the the differences would be where they graduate from primary and they start the youth program. And then the boys move into like the age of that that moved from? That’s 12.
C: Okay, so similar. Okay.
W: Yeah, very similar.
C: Yeah. I noticed that with all the, when I was in the event industry, I did a ton of Bar and Bat Mitzvahs as a disc jockey. And, and then, of course, I live in a Jewish neighborhood. And so and my wife is Jewish, and so a lotta so there is that same kind of transition except for it’s 13. Typically, in the Jewish community, where they theoretically become an adult, in fact, with as a joke for the MCs and DJs we’d laugh because it would be Congratulations, your adult, let’s play some games.
W: Right? I know I, I’ve been able to do a few bar Mitzvahs too and and I love that it’s a joyous celebration for them. I love that they celebrate it like they do. Because I feel like and you know, to be honest with, you know, bringing it back into what we both do as a profession in the wedding and events industry, I feel like I tend to gravitate towards the cultures that celebrate those milestones the most. Where it isn’t just like a pomp and circumstance, hey, we’re doing this because we have to or because everybody else does. It’s like we’re doing it because we’re celebrating that we’ve reached the milestone or the wonderful thing happened in our lives that we want everyone to share in our joy.
C: You know, I would like high school graduations to have that vibe, because they don’t want oh my gosh, it’s just painful when I get older, I have very little tolerance for things that are just obligatory, right? I mean, yes, but but having said that there are some people who really attach their importance to the obligatory ceremonies, you know, I’m going to put this on, I’m going to stand in front of you. And this is where I’m important. Whereas I’m in the audience, having been in that situation where I’ve been in front of audiences since I was 11, my entire life, doing all kinds of stuff of different sizes, and, and scope. And when I’m in an audience, I just think to myself, number one, get to the point number two, make it relevant. Number three, is a lot of people that are waiting for you to shut up.
And, and so consequently, just on a side note, when I’m going to emcee a big event, I tell the promoters and producers do not introduce me, do not and they’re not used to that because most of the time when a person gets up in front of a microphone, they want to feel important, right? I, on the other hand, I learned a long time ago that no, no They couldn’t, the audience couldn’t care less about me. They want to get to whatever the show is. So if you don’t mind, we’re just going to walk out, we’re going to start the show. And then they’ll build a relationship with me just because of the nature of what I do. But I don’t want to be introduced because then everything starts on kind of like a “Wah, wah…” And that for over 30 years, I’ve been doing that and it always works out great.
So then I see other people that are up there doing commencement speeches, or whatever it is, and I think, Oh, my gracious.
Now, having said that, because of the pandemic, and because of social distancing, and all that kind of stuff. There was this neat show, I think it was NBC. They did a series of commencement speeches, and one of them was former President Barack Obama. And the thing that was great about that is that it was short. It was like seven minutes long at the most. And yeah, yeah, just you know, okay, you’re the future. Yay, go get them and that sort of thing.
Okay. So now my kids, I always thought that the best way for me to be honest with them, because my theological exploration is so diverse is to allow them to discover their spirituality on their own with me, like, as one example.
And my wife is very spiritual as well. Certainly not in their formal religious context. But one of the reasons I, it was kind of like, okay, I had a checklist, you know what I mean? I was ready to find the woman, and I had a little checklist, and then I didn’t make a big thing out of it. I didn’t like give her a questionnaire, but I just knew that I needed to have a woman that was spiritual, that really believed in that aspect of humanity. And fortunately, she was all in and it was just great. And so we both believe in a higher power, God, whatever fits, and then, although I know we’re gonna have a conversation about that, I think you and I about that, that terminology.
But anyway, with the kids, I remember driving my daughter to elementary school, when she was in like first grade, and she would look at things and say, who made that? So for instance, there’s a tree who made the tree. I said, God made the tree. And then she said, who made that building? And I said, people made that building, but they made it with stuff that God made. So just to kind of like, try to keep it in context. Does that make sense?
W: Yes.
C: And that seemed to be okay. But then my daughter got into high school and she’s questioning whether there is a God and what her personal theology is, and, and philosophy and, and, and I just like open and honest conversations. I don’t I don’t like the idea that No, no, you have to believe what I believe. I don’t think that’s productive. You know.
Did you have conversation with that?
W: Yes, I was just going to explore that a little bit. I feel like even within a certain religion or or faith structure that there are, there are a lot of things to cover and talk about and to establish how you want to believe what’s it what’s in front of you, you know, and obviously, my whole thing with my kids was to raise them with a strong foundation so that when they were old enough to choose that they were able to choose appropriately for themselves. And I’m a huge proponent of choice and being able to choose for yourself and having that freedom. And so, as far as my kids go, like, I don’t force them to go to church. I mean, yes, I would like my my youngest one to come with me, although I feel like I have to force him to do anything that doesn’t involve playing a video game.
C: Oh, my gosh. You’re preaching to the choir right now.
W: Yes, I feel like it’s just that age group where they love and that but you know it to be honest when they play video games now it is a social thing where they’re there with their friends and they’re having a good time. And, and so it’s just, it’s evolved from what it once was where it was very isolating and they play it by themselves anyway, that’s not what we’re talking about, you know, as far as giving my kids the keys to be able to decide what they want to do what’s right for them when they’re like your daughter did where they decide, you know, what do I want to believe in? What are my beliefs because I remember going through that myself, was about when I was 18 years old, where I sat back and I thought, do I really believe this? I’ve been raised this way, but is this my belief system? And so I kind of prepared for that to come for each one of my children because I feel like I wanted them to be able to approach that time period when it arrived for them with, whatever they needed to discern, is this right for me or not?
And so we’ve definitely had a lot A lot of conversations around religion and what religion what role they want it to play in their life, how they want it to be for their families, is it something that they use, as you know, because there are certain people that use religion as like, this is my life. And then there’s other people that use religion as this is an aspect of my life. And where does it fall on that spectrum for them?
And and I really recommend that if you want your children to have that, that sense of spirituality in their lives, that you give them the freedom to choose, because I’m seeing even right now with, the kids come home from spending a weekend at their Dad’s house and hearing about what their cousins are going through that have been forced to, you know, live a certain way and think a certain way and do certain things and how they’re resisting it. And I really believe that as parents, it is our it is of utmost importance. To raise your children with whatever you want them to have, but also to trust them to make choices for themselves. Because if you don’t, if you’re forcing it on them, it’s not always going to turn out the way you hope.
C: Yeah, I will do this. You know what, I think we’re gonna have to do part two, if not Part Three, four, and five, because we’re out of time on this, but I really believe that that if if they feel like their parent loves them and accepts them for who they are, and those conversations and open and inquisitive, that the curiosity is, is approved of, then I think, I think, I don’t know, I just think it has benefits long range. That’s what it seems. Yes.
W: And you have to be as parents, you need to be that safe container for them where they can explore what their beliefs are, and it’s safe.
C: And I get the idea that some parents are saying, okay, but you can’t trust an underdeveloped mind to make good decisions for themselves. And and I think that’s going to be a conversation for the next episode because we’ve run out of time. Yeah, very cool. All right, everybody. Yeah, me too. I mean, there’s a there’s all kinds of different ways of raising your kids. And it’s fascinating.
All right. Now, before we started recording, when do you told me that and I think I saw it, the Facebook page is up, I want people to be able to go to that spiritual cake, which is really funny if you want to have some fun, just google spiritual cake and look at all the different things that come up. Oh my gosh, it’s funny. And anyway, but in the Facebook world, spiritual cake podcast is there at spiritual cake podcast and we’re working on other ways for by which you can connect with us through social media and etc. And we will keep you updated as we release these episodes and let you know what’s going on. In the meantime, we have an email address, it’s spiritual cake [email protected]. Please, if you have any questions or comments, we would love for you to interact with us. And and if it’s something that We think is going to benefit everybody who’s listening. Then we’ll bring it into the conversation. That’d be great. Is that cool, Wendy?
W: That’s great. I’m excited.
C: Yeah, me too. I love the way this is going. Alright everybody. That’s it for this episode of spiritual cake podcast. This is Clint and on behalf of Wendy. We will see you next time!
