Hey, welcome to another episode of Spiritual Cake where we talk about all of that spiritual stuff. And anything else that’s relevant to us, a conversation from two people, who are not official clergy or ordained or run a church or any of that kind of stuff. We’re just two people that love the conversation, the ideas and the feelings that get when we talk about things of the Spirit, because we both have a very diverse background and have engaged with a lot of different thought philosophies and theologies. My name is Clint, and I am a non-denominational wedding Officiant along with everything else. And with me is Wendy Dahl, who is a event planner and has done all kinds of really, really fun stuff when you say Hey!
Hello!
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Why is abstinence from caffeine important? What is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? Is the struggle really about the opinions of others?
What makes a person good? (1:00)
So I want to pick right up from where we left off in the last episode. We were talking about what makes a person good and we referenced an interview with Kanye West in GQ magazine. In which listener, you can certainly look that up. And there was a particular paragraph where he talked about…he focused more on what inspires him and what he the beauty that he sees and wants to focus on, as opposed to the rules of everybody else.
That’s the way I interpreted it. Did you that sound like it was kind of?
Yeah. Okay.
So then you mentioned something that I thought was really interesting. You said that when you went to church, as a girl, you said, “This is what you have to do to be good to be a good girl. Good girls do this.” Right…Yeah. “And good girls don’t do that.” Right. And that’s been the subject of books, and songs and movies and you know, good girls do this and good girls don’t do that…and all that kind of stuff.
What is good anyway? (2:05)
And I posited that it all depends on number one, what your interpretation of the word good is and number two, it’s all based on human behavior. It’s all based on that.
That’s that was my kind of, I think, does that make sense? But then you said something that was fascinating, because I’ve heard it discussed before. Because I grew up in the Lutheran Church in a very, you know, conservative, kind of a small church and, people talked about…I don’t think this is specific to any church. I think it’s kind of like across all of the organizations where they will say, okay, you show up on the day of worship, but the rest of your week is kind of crappy. In terms of whether or not you’re a good person. Did I understand that correctly? You did, yes. Where you give the appearance of goodness on Sundays, but then in between not so good.
What is the purpose of going to church? (3:00)
Well, then what is the purpose of going to church or the Sabbath on Saturday depending upon you know, who your with. What’s the purpose, then? Why go?
Well, I would imagine it comes from two different schools, depending on your drivers for going. The first driver would be to seek community based on shared faith or shared belief system. And I feel like from that there’s also feeding the ego of, “I have a presence within this community. And I must, you know, elevate myself. And that by going, I am visible and I have the appearance that I’m doing good things.”
But I also feel like, the third thing would be…to learn. Because I know that when I go to church, often it’s I’m learning new things. Maybe it’s something that I’ve heard 10 times in my life, but because of my circumstances, it’s hitting me different.
So I would say the three reasons why people go to church:
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- Community
- Learning
- The appearance of “I’m here”
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And I’ve also contemplated that third person and I don’t want to sound like I’m harsh, but I almost feel like that third group of people goes to church to feel better about themselves. And so they kind of overdo it where they make extra special rules for themselves so that they appear to be better than everyone else. And that they’re sort of missing the concept of humility, and that we’re, all equal, and that, we don’t need to have this ego present where we’re judging other people. Where we should be coming together as a community to lift each other.
When you say a person makes extra special, something for themselves, to kind of elevate themselves within that community. Can you give me an example like what are you talking about?
What is the difference between religious rules and opinion and what is the impact? (4:54)
Sure. So in the Mormon faith, we believe that there is, it’s called the Word of Wisdom. And it’s where you don’t, you know, drink alcohol; you don’t smoke cigarettes or do drugs or, drink addictive things like coffee and stuff.
An extra rule to that Word of Wisdom might be, “oh, well, we don’t drink Coke either or any sort of soda product that has caffeine in it because that also could be construed just like coffee.” And so, there has never been any definitive ruling on whether or not sodas are included in the Word of Wisdom, but that there’s a consensus of people or families in particular that are like, “No, we believe that that is also part of it. Even though there was no law or rule, stipulating that.”
Well that reminds me. Now I’m referencing back to that interview with Kanye. Because I think okay, so let’s say the scenario that you’ve presented to us, is that you’re in a church. And then there’s this one group of people, whether it’s a family or an extended group of friends or whatever it is like-minded people, so to speak. And they’re saying that, just as an example, one people group is saying, “It’s coffee, because coffee has caffeine, it can be addictive and so, okay, so we’re not going to drink coffee, because we think that’s the guidance that we’ve been given.” And the other group of people are saying, “No, it’s not coffee, per se, it’s the caffeine in the coffee, which means if there’s anything else that contains caffeine, we shouldn’t drink that as well or consume that as well.”
And so then, okay, I’m so familiar with this. This is awesome. Because in the Lutheran Church where I grew up, when we did communion, (communion is the wine and the bread.) There’s all these different interpretations of, you know, is it symbolically the body and blood of Christ or is it actually through the magic of, “God’s Juju” that It becomes the blood and body of Christ. And depending upon which Senate of Lutheran there was like, and in fact, the TV show Cheers back in the 1980s in the 80s, the bartender, what was his name? Woody Harrelson played the bartender. Anyway, he was going to get married. And they were both Lutherans, but they came from different Senate’s and that became a point of contention because one church served wine, actual wine. (That’s what I grew up with, was actual wine.) And the other one did grape juice. And then there was this argument like, you know, you’re an “alkie.” Well, you’re fake.
So and so I see that played out all different ways throughout all different organizations. And now we go back to the whole caffeine scenario. And then I, to me, the criteria is, how important is that?
What really is important about that? Is this going to affect something in such a dramatic way? It really is a strong point of contention that needs to be observed or is it just your opinion? What’s the payoff?
Can I tell you how I explain things like this to my kids? Ah, okay. I tell them that there’s two schools of thought when it comes to, measuring goodness, because we’re talking about subjectivity here on what is good and what isn’t.
What is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law? (8:15)
So there’s the letter of the law, which follows every single rule, irregardless of any common sense, or non common sense, or making up extra rules, all those things. And then there’s the spirit of the law, which is “Why is this law in existence and the purpose behind it?” So if you were to take the letter of the law, meaning there’s no caffeine, and the extra letter of the law people would add on to that sodas, but then the spirit of the law is simply that they don’t want your body to become addicted to anything, so that you have full scope and capacity. Whether you’re drinking alcohol and your judgment is changed. Or you can’t have a good day unless you’ve had two or three cups of coffee. So it’s like they don’t want your body to be reliant on any sort of external vise, so to speak.
The letter of the law people will be like, “Hey, you know, we’re going to follow all of these things” and the spirit of the laws is like, “I’m not going to be addicted, because I don’t want to be.” And so they’re looking at those extra laws like, “Is that necessary?” Because the spirit of the law is telling me that I should not have any addictions so that I could be healthy.
I think what also is drawn into consideration is, like you said, the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. I totally get that. But I’m also curious about the purpose of the law.
What is the purpose of the law? (9:35)
Okay, my next-door neighbor is an Orthodox Jew. And we’ve been having these great conversations. And one of the most recent ones was “Why do you do what you do?” Because, there’s a daily thing for him where he prays three times a day. And I mean, like, there’s a lot of stuff going on. But he said that when people outside of his circle, learn about his daily routine, what I call his practice, they start thinking about the things that he’s not able to do or not “allowed” to do. And he doesn’t look at it that way.
He looks at it as “I do this, because it enhances my life.” Right? And so now when you talk about something as simple as a chemical component of caffeine, and how it’s processed in the human body, it’s possible that if something is mentioned in Scripture, it isn’t that this is the gateway to heaven. (Because at some point, we’re going to talk about that heaven and hell and things like that.) But, but it’s possible that the spirit of the suggestion, and I consider it a suggestion, not necessarily a commandment, but the spirit of it is so that you have a more enjoyable life right now. Right? And so the way you described it is that if you if it’s something that’s going to be harmful to where you’re addicted to it, you can enjoy your life unless you have a certain amount of it. Well, then if you got rid of it, then it’s possible that you would enjoy your life, like immediately, without anything else influencing that…you would just enjoy your life. Does that make sense? As if what’s the purpose of the guideline?
I think that’s exactly it. You nailed it. Living addiction free and being able to enjoy life, it’s like being in a social setting and enjoying your time with others without the illusion of what the alcohol gives you as far as like, “I feel more social.” You know, we’ve all seen this, like, people can’t dance or they can’t socialize with other people unless they’re drinking. But if you’re not used to having alcohol in your system, you can do that irregardless of whether the people around you are drinking or not. You’re fine to do it anyway.
It is the same thing with caffeine where if you don’t need that crutch every day, you can just wake up and be happy because you feel refreshed. You have had enough sleep and your body isn’t looking for that morning kick, or you’re re-hydrating with water and stretching and getting your body going in a different way.
Do the opinions of others play a role? (12:15)
You know, you said something that that triggered me a little bit. And I mean, in a good way it was. I think what it boils down to is the opinion of other people. Right, I think what we’re talking about people wouldn’t have these discussions or arguments or confrontations or whatever it is. I mean wars have been started over crazy stuff like this. And, and I think it comes down to the opinion of other people. And I think that’s built into us as human beings. Because you see it at the youngest of ages, where little kids are really concerned about how other kids feel about them.
And so we’re talking about the purpose of the guideline. And it’s to enhance your life right now. But yet when you mix in the human condition or the human ego or whatever you want to label it, then it starts to get kind of not happy.
Is the struggle really about the opinions of others? (13:00)
Maybe it’s a validation, like a person needs to be validated that what they’re doing is right, by judging somebody else or which leads them to criticize somebody else’s behavior because they want to maintain… Okay, wait, person number one will criticize person number two, because person number one is their ego is fragile and they need to be validated. Does that make sense?
I agree with this 100%. And I feel and that’s why I feel like there are three types of people that go to church. The people that seek community, the people that seek knowledge, and then there’s an ego driven person that seeks what you’re what you’re describing exactly.
Yeah, I heard somebody say that sometimes people that are really ambitious, there are really only two things that really matter: money and power. And if you have enough money, you’re going to get power. And usually if you have the power, you can figure out a way to get money. Right? So it goes back to what I said about the human condition where for some reason we want to be part of the tribe, but we want to feel special. We want to be separated just enough to where we’re above the crowd but yet we still want to be part of the crowd.
And so here you have this situation where there’s a group of people and you know what, it out it has nothing to do with church or religion or religious organization. You see this everywhere. You see it in corporate or groups and you see it everywhere, where there’s a bunch of people and then that that part of the human condition just kind of kicks in. And the whole purpose, the original purpose, I would think of the gathering of people that are looking for spiritual growth, whether it be intellectual or emotional, because you want to feel good, and you like to become smarter, I guess. But then you have this other mix of people that come into it. And it’s weird. It’s it can easily become ugly, because it taints the purity of what’s supposed to be a positive experience. Does that make sense? Perfect sense. Yes.
How do we protect ourselves from caring so much about the opinions of others? (15:15)
So then it begs the question of how do we protect ourselves? That’s where I admired what Kanye said. He said, I don’t need to protect myself because I’m already really, really confident in and why am I’m doing this and the beauty that it brings me. And he what he said, had didn’t taint anybody else. He’s saying I’m doing this because I love the beauty of my clothing and clothing in general, or the creative process or the connection to Christ. You know, whatever it is. And I think that’s wonderful. And it takes discipline, I think, for individuals to kind of bring it back to themselves and focus on what’s going to enhance their lives. That’s hard sometimes.
Why do YOU go to church? (16:00)
It is very hard and I think it also brings with it a level of maturity to look at the situation outside of it. In my case, there have been times throughout my life where I’ve stepped outside of…it’s almost like I view what’s going on at church from a 30,000 foot perspective and think, “Okay, what do I need here?” And so at one particular time, it was more toxic for me to go to church because of the rumor mill and the people there and that that crazy need to separate from…I’m a divorced Mormon mother and I’ve been divorced for 10 years. I’ve been running this show in my household for a long time by myself and I tell you for at least the first five years, going to church, I would get the sideways glances because I don’t fit in with the with the norm of what is in the church. And that could be in anywhere, or in what whatever group in society that exists. If you’re different, people look at you differently.
And so for me, I had to step outside of that and think, Okay, what do I need here? Why am I going to church? I would go to church, and I didn’t care what people thought I didn’t care what they said, I didn’t care how they looked at me. I was there because I needed to establish or re-establish my relationship with God. I needed to strengthen that. It took about two or three years for me to get to the point from like divorce day one, until the time I wanted to return to church because I missed that sense of community and I missed the knowledge that you get from listening to other people. But to feel comfortable in my own skin with all the sideways looks and glances and whispers and things, I finally got to the point where I was like, I don’t care what they say, that’s on them. I’m here for me, because I need to feed my spirituality and I need to come back to the Wendy that I know and love that has a great relationship with God aside from just personal scripture, study and prayer.
And so that was the game changer for me was to set aside what everybody else thought and to be there anyway.
It’s really hard to do that without judging the other people. It’s hard. What we’re talking about is really difficult. Because we’re human beings. So we’re struggling with all the different dimensions of human layers, if you will, like a cake.
And can I tell you that there were probably a few months of me judging them. I looked at them as small minded, not Christian-like, or not loving people. I was just as scathing to them as they were to me because I just looked at them like they were small and that their scope was small.
How can YOU get through being judged by others? (18:53)
What finally helped me cross that bridge from judging them like they were judging me was forgiveness, where I forgave them for what they didn’t see. They didn’t know that I was perceiving their behavior as negative. They were just doing what came natural to them. And so for me, I had to forgive them for what they didn’t know they were doing to me, because I think honestly, there were some people who knew exactly what they were doing. But I think by far and wide, most people, they’re not treating to you that way, because they’re spiteful. They’re treating you that way, because they just don’t know better.
You know, it’s the crucible of fire, that what I’ve read about in the old days when the Blacksmith would make anything out of iron, they had to put it into fire to purify it, right? And so I’m thinking of what Kanye went through just what has been revealed publicly, is that he had to go through stuff and he was medicated. And then he found a way to get through it. And I think what I just heard you say is another way of getting through it. You have to, you have to go through that self doubt and social rejection and all that kind of stuff, in order to get back to the essence of what’s right and what’s good for you, personally, as an individual, a single person, and you kind of have to establish a brand new foundation and then and then grow out from there. But you got to go through that fire to get to that point.
And boy, does that take a lot of courage!
Oh my gosh. I went through something similar had nothing to do with the Spirit. I mean it was a social situation. Oh, you know what? In future episodes we’re going to talk about how this as parents, because I’m thinking about, you know what you went through and your kids are around you and you know, kids watch everything that we do. There’s an old saying of, kids learn a lot more from what you do than what you say. So I think that’s my teaser for future episodes is that we’re going to dive into you know, the whole parental thing.
All right everybody, that’s it for this episode of spiritual cake. When we get all of our ways of connecting with us up. We are very excited to meet all of you. And so until then, this is Clint and on behalf of Wendy. We will see you next time.
